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#46
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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Quality The algorithm allows the user to specify a desired quality. This simply determines the number of schedules that are generated and evaluated in the simulated annealing algorithm, as specified in the list below. Fair: 100,000 Good: 750,000 Best: 5,000,000 If they are running only one perhaps they should choose "Best" Last edited by Boltman : 15-03-2016 at 16:02. |
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#47
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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#48
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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I believe it would be simple add the bin constraint--I doubt that it would have to be run more than once. The only added step which is quite easy is to assign the teams to the separate bins. As for leaving scheduling to the judgement calls of the officials, I think that's fraught with danger. For example, how should we have treated 5136 at CVR? They had made it to Einstein in 2014 yet they are only a 3rd year team. I think a transparent algorithm solves the problem the best. |
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#49
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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Another option to use a sliding scale of point ratings for each team, and ensure that each alliance has a total that exceeds a minimum value. That would allow for more flexibility in alliance composition. Again an imperative to ensure that every alliance has a minimum level of competence. The flip side of having overly strong alliances is less important if each alliance surpasses a minimum. I'm interested in what the problem was with the 2007 schedule? What criteria were they using? BTW, I think it's interesting to see that it's only the NFL that uses strength of schedule. The other leagues have so many games (80+) that each team is able to play each other multiple times. (But I will note that the NBA changed its playoff qualification instead as a means of correcting a regional misbalance in schedule strength.) The NFL season is more akin to FRC with relatively few matches compared to the number of competitors. Last edited by Citrus Dad : 15-03-2016 at 20:21. Reason: added 2007 question |
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#50
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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I was happy to see in another regional a 5000# captain did break through not sure if that was powerhouse laced or not though..awesome to see. All I know is going to worlds our first year is the main reason WHY we are so good now as a young third year team. It made an impression on us we will not forget we did not like the taste of finishing 90th or so there. The world championship experience is something every team should have as I believe it helps young teams to become that next generation. You see what it takes and witness first hand the best. I'm just glad CA offers every year a world class regional experience within driving distance. Last edited by Boltman : 15-03-2016 at 20:57. |
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#51
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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The biggest issue will be correctly populating the buckets - this thread discusses many of the same ideas. You'll also have to account for buckets that aren't of equal size (by whatever metric you choose), especially when the number of teams attending is not a multiple of 3. Would this cause more surrogates to be used, or something else? Are you proposing using previous year's data, because that runs into trouble with fast team turnover and the potential for powerhouse teams to have down years, only to be paired with other powerhouses more often the following year. Plus, what do you do with rookies? They have no data to rely on yet, and there are always exceptional rookie teams, which would cause the same kind of inconsistency. If you use current season data, what would you do for early events? You wouldn't have any data available for the early weeks, so you'd have to resort to a randomness-based algorithm again. This approach would only work for District Champs/World Champs, where all teams are already guaranteed to have played already. Plus, Ed Law made a great point in the other thread I linked: Quote:
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#52
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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Those "powerhouse" teams should not be paired as a "dream alliance" in Quals at all and possibly face each other to provide more entertainment than just running up the score against three way younger teams scratching and clawing for the worlds only to likely get slaughtered (and drop 2 RP each ) Lets say an event such as CVR there are SIX teams that meet that criteria (with four wildcards not a stretch) so you put SIX fake teams in the algorithm as placeholders...you then analyze each fake entry if it look fair balance with other fake entries you then replace the real powerhouse teams randomly in...for the others you check other fake team place holders if you see a discrepancy shift a pool team in and make their games placeholders...rinse repeat. Until all six teams are more evenly sorted. Then randomly assign powerhouses to each fake entry. -OR_ Re-run the algorithm until the fake placeholders look balanced is another way. Then enter the real teams again randomly for each fake placeholder. Look at CVR.. #1 really took it to #5 in Finals ...no surprise to anyone there and #5 was very strong offensively but younger and not as many creds. I'm fairly certain we would have been a similar story as #2...that is how good #1 was. It really can be like NE always getting to play Cleveland due to lack of young teams at #1 close but not quite at least in stacked regionals. In SD yes a rookie was #1 and got beat in QF SD only had 1 super class bot 399. Our alliance #8 took them out in 2 games because we were ranked low #19 due to missing RP's for breaches not credited. (Should have been rank 10 or 11 and captain) fine with us worked out not so fine for rookie #1 alliance (although they rightfully earned RAS) Would treating powerhouses slightly different change the end result? Who knows but it may have. Same with valid RP sorts. FRC can do better IMO..lots of brains there figure it out. You are never going to get truly random but you can try to get more balanced at the top tier dream team pairings and facing repeat low win probability having to face the same powerhouse team that beat you more than once especially when paired with another. Last edited by Boltman : 15-03-2016 at 22:01. |
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#53
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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I want to take this conversation off line for those interested in addressing this. I have an idea for changing the scheduling process that would both incorporate strength factors AND make it easier. I'm particularly interested in what happened in 2007 as that was before my involvement. Please message me directly if you want to discuss this. |
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#54
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Re: Real Week 2 update
I wouldn't say that that's true at all. Just off the top of my head, 1266, 2486, 2102, 3255, and, though I may be biased, 2485 have all been to champs on multiple occasions.
Broader, though, it's not FIRST's job to make sure everyone gets to go to champs. The tech world that FRC prepares us for is cutthroat. Not everyone gets equal opportunity. |
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#55
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Re: Real Week 2 update
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Congrats to 2102, 3021 and 2486 for winning SD I'll be watching you in worlds 2485 made it too with a well deserved award. 5805 was super sleek awesome RAS. 2687 got the WC...awesome job San Diego teams. 3255 was very solid until they broke down at the wrong time they should be a favorite in their next event Actually I'm glad Champs are hard makes you hungry every year..... Last edited by Boltman : 16-03-2016 at 23:58. |
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