Aluminum Wheels

[Paradox]

We have some 6 in. dia. 6061 aluminum bar stock that was donated to our school a couple of years ago. Can I use that stock to make our wheels. Small Parts sells the same material (page 97 of their catalog). Why should I have to buy it from them if it was given to us? Please advise, I do not want to have a problem when we arrive at regionals.

[Ed Sparks]

Given:

1. All of the loose interpretations of the rules in the past.
2. The fact that First has allowed "Small Parts" material to be purchased from others in the past if Small Parts is behind.
3. 6" 6061 is clearly in the catalog and a legal material.
4. 6061 is 6061 no matter where you get it.
5. The spirit of the material limit has not been broken.
6. It seems ashamed to let good material sit on the rack.
7. None of us have as much $$$ as we (think) we need.
8. We're not competing for a multi-million cash prize, were mentoring.


I say ......

go for it! I'm not looking .....

[Marc P.]

Team 38 has essentially the same situation, and we've done that for the past 3 years with our sexy looking wheels. Go for it, the rules do say you can aquire parts from place other than small parts provided the material is avaliable from small parts. You can get it anywhere if you can get it from small parts.

[Joe Johnson]

While I too would not loose sleep over a team using 6" Dia 6061 bar from a non Small Parts source, I am not so fast and loose with the rules as some might be...

The Rules say that if it is available from Small Parts you should get it from Small Parts, UNLESS they are out of it and you clear it with FIRST first.

Am I wrong here?

Joe J.

[bigqueue]

Originally posted by Joe Johnson
While I too would not loose sleep over a team using 6" Dia 6061 bar from a non Small Parts source, I am not so fast and loose with the rules as some might be...

The Rules say that if it is available from Small Parts you should get it from Small Parts, UNLESS they are out of it and you clear it with FIRST first.

Am I wrong here?

Joe J.

I believe you are correct here Joe, and perhaps this should be "cleared" with FIRST....but I would be quite surprised of they ruled against.

Let's face it, some teams have ALOT more money than others, and saving a few bucks here and there is really CRITICAL to some. (never mind the time which might be important to any team)

Also, as I understand it, while FIRST always wants to be "good" to Small Parts since they are a good company and past sponsor, I hear that this year they are not.....

So given the material is the same, I don't see the issue myself, and I believe that FIRST would see it the same way. (with such strict interpretation, all you get are teams buying material to get a receipt and returning it... which is cheating for no reason and not good for Small Parts either)

-Quentin

[Larry Barello]

I agree with Joe's sentiments, however: I think the FIRST rules need to be cleared up in this area. The implied requirement of of purchasing from SPI yet allowing us to purchase from anyone if we get frustrated enough, is very confusing and misleading. Rookie teams get slammed the worst since they don't know any better (hint: once cut extruded and sheet stock look pretty much the same)

The rules should simply state: no solid metal or extruded shape with a crosssection greater than 2x3, unlimited area for 1/4", or less sheet metal. And make it clear that unlimited stuff is, well, unlimited in quantity, price and purchase location. Or, continue to use SPI as the gold standard: whatever is in their catalog is allowed material regardless of where it came from.

The rules on "custom ordered stuff" is also very ambiguous and causes grief: We can't get special order stuff, but if we are rich enough we can hire a machinist to make it for us? What is fair about that? If we can hire a machinist, why not a distributer or a manufacturer?

[bigqueue]

Originally posted by Larry Barello
The rules on "custom ordered stuff" is also very ambiguous and causes grief: We can't get special order stuff, but if we are rich enough we can hire a machinist to make it for us? What is fair about that? If we can hire a machinist, why not a distributer or a manufacturer?

This is actually an *EXCELLENT* point, and is worth bringing up to FIRST.

The concept of "standard off the shelf" sounds great when you look at part procurement rules in a vaccum, but when you also consider the difference in machine shop/machinist capabilities between teams, it certainly favors those with the shop.

In fact, I would consider the people selling the "modified/custom part" an extension of my machine shop. (Outsourcing is a wonderful thing!)

-Quentin

[Bill Beatty]

Just to clarify a point. It is our interpretation, that if it is on the additional hardware list it can be purchased from anywhere even if SPI has it. Many times, if time allows, we purchase additional hardware from SPI to help support them, but often time or cost dictates we purchase locally.

If, on the other hand, it is NOT on the additonal hardware list, it MUST be purchased from SPI. If they are out of stock, we would contact FIRST for permission to purchase identical items from other sources. Over the years we have gone to a lot of expense and effort to stay within these rules. For prototyping and spares we use raw material from any source, but when the Bot hits the crate, it is 100% SPI or additional hardware.

[Larry Barello]

Anyone notice in the FRCtech2002 list they came out and said that if SPI sold it (it is in the catalog) you can get that part *anywere*

I guess FIRST just allowed 6" bar stock! (oh, yeah, make that 6061-T6 or it isn't allowed...)

[iscrc2]

So what is not clear to me now is the FRCtech2002 message 461 where they say:

A) If Small Parts usually carries something you want but is
backordered or out of stock, you can go any where you want to obtain
it. It must be an exact match to what SPI would have carried. You
cannot buy anything that you could not have found in the Small Parts
catalog. FIRSTsnow

I do think that they mean you can still buy additional hardware from the list that SPI does not carry (e.g. plywood). But what about gears that are not in the SPI catalog?

The additional hardware lists Sprockets, Gears, and Pulleys - Any size any amount...

but from the FRC post it sounds like they are saying you can ONLY get the types of items you can find in the catalog.

I must be misinterpreting this. McMaster-Carr is listed as a supplier in Appendix F. That must make them a legit source of things like gears.

What do others think?

[Ed Sparks]

The additional hardware lists Sprockets, Gears, and Pulleys - Any size any amount...

You are permitted to buy materials on the "Additional Hardware List" from any source you wish.

I'm buying some gears from McMaster-Carr for my secret razzel-dazzel drive system. You have to be wearing the secret decoder ring just to drive it.

WARNING: There is a 10 day lead time on most of the gears from McMaster-Carr. Order early.

[Bill Beatty]

Ed is correct. If it is on the additional hardware list, you can buy it from any source. If it is not on the additional hardware list, you must buy it from SPI, but if SPI is OUT OF STOCK, you can buy identical "SPI only items" from other sources. The key here is SPI must be out of stock to allow you to buy a "SPI only item" from other sources.