Using the Drawbridge/Sallyport or not?

[jblay]

In our design on 694 this year, we decided not to go for the lowbar and instead decided on a bot that could traverse the other defenses well. In the end we ended up with a bot the could do the drawbridge, though not well quite yet and can open the sallyport from the neutral zone for a partner and then sneak in behind them. As we played through our first regional, we were utilizing the drawbridge and sallyport to try to get breaches in matches where we didn't have a bot that could do the lowbar, but we weren't opening the drawbridge from the neutral zone, only coming in from the courtyard. For the sallyport, we were opening it for partners. Once we reached elims, we decided that we would ignore the category all together, because we could get a breach without it and it would slow down our overall scoring, and in all honesty we weren't doing either of those defenses well enough yet.
Here is the situation we find ourselves in and I think there are a few teams and there will be a few alliances going forward as this game evolves that have a similar question. Should we utilize the drawbridge and sallyport or not?
My feeling is that at the highest level of play a breach and the 8 balls for a capture are a given, so at that point it doesn't matter how you score, it's all about how much you can put up on the board, if you are going into the neutral zone for a ball, why not take the extra time to get 5 or 10 points from that category? If it takes you longer to pickup 2 balls and score them high (assuming 100% shooting, which is never the case) than it takes you to clear the drawbridge/sallyport isn't it suddenly worth it again? Should we invest our time in making our robot better at the drawbridge/sallyport? What does the world of ChiefDelphi think?

[Sperkowsky]

Well, when your talking about the highest level of play I think they will be ignored. If you look at the top shooters this year they can pick up a ball from their secret passage and shoot it faster the lining up to go through the Sally port or drawbridge and then holding it open for their teammates. There are a few robots that have good manipulators to open them from the neutral zone and if you have a robot like that it will take no less time then going over something like the Cheval DE Frise but, if you have to use the teamwork method to get through them in the highest level of play it will waste way too much time that could be spent scoring high goals.

[1493kd]

Those ten points that can be earned by a robot that can defeat both of them (quickly) will become more and more important as season goes on. Yes you only need to defeat 4 defenses but just ignoring them is leaving ten points on the field every match. Being one of the best sally port/drawbridge bots would make you very valueable im my opinion. But only if you can defeat it yourself and not needing your alliance to help.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Those ten points that can be earned by a robot that can defeat both of them (quickly) will become more and more important as season goes on. Yes you only need to defeat 4 defenses but just ignoring them is leaving ten points on the field every match. Being one of the best sally port/drawbridge bots would make you very valueable im my opinion. But only if you can defeat it yourself and not needing your alliance to help.

15 points, actually.

What, you can't get through those in auto? Great way to tack on some extra points, that. (In all seriousness, my team will go through the Sally Port in auto at least as easily as in teleop.)

If you can do either one solo and quickly, that'll be really helpful to your alliance.

[Boltman]

Both of those are relatively easy to knock out with teamwork. The only defense we never tried and let others do was CDF just because we knew that would take more time if we did it..pretty sure we took out Draw/SP most games we played in as a combined effort.

[1493kd]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Both of those are relatively easy to knock out with teamwork.

Exactly, it takes at min 20 seconds away from your alliance to do something else if you have to use teamwork. Both these defenses are by far the least crossed and take the longest time to defeat. Being great at them alone is a huge assest IMO.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Exactly, it takes at min 20 seconds away from your alliance to do something else if you have to use teamwork. Both these defenses are by far the least crossed and take the longest time to defeat. Being great at them alone is a huge assest IMO.

20 seconds to get near certain 10 points and 25% to a breach is a good trade-off over a solo missed HG shot or a failed LG push...its not like those plays are anywhere near 100% certainty and each single play could waste more than 20 seconds of coordinated play also those boulder plays vary greatly between bots on an alliance...pretty much any bot can drive forward. Breach should be alliance #1 goal in quals..its all about +1 or +2 RP in quals added to wins to rank higher. Then breach and boulders to a capture of the castle in elims.

[1493kd]

The OP asked about the highest levels of play. At that point of the season you cant leave any points on the field and every second you could be doing something else matters.

Most teams at that level wont be missing many high or low goal shots

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

Those ten points that can be earned by a robot that can defeat both of them (quickly) will become more and more important as season goes on. Yes you only need to defeat 4 defenses but just ignoring them is leaving ten points on the field every match. Being one of the best sally port/drawbridge bots would make you very valueable im my opinion. But only if you can defeat it yourself and not needing your alliance to help.

I agree with this sentiment. (emphasis mine)

I think that if you can do cat C defenses efficiently, its much like having a climb. (ten extra points without much extra driving)

[pandamonium]

having 1 robot open the door and then having 2 robots follow seems like the fastest method for this defense if coordinated properly.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

having 1 robot open the door and then having 2 robots follow seems like the fastest method for this defense if coordinated properly.

Much easier said than done.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

having 1 robot open the door and then having 2 robots follow seems like the fastest method for this defense if coordinated properly.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Much easier said than done.

Yes, it is. 1:50 -- 2:15

I think 67 could have done it twice solo, faster; assuming the referees would have seen the door clearance and scored in correctly. However, the well coordinated choo-choo train allowed 33 and 4003 to bring boulders along, and left 33 with time for another cycle, and a scale. It was very well planned, and definitely not easy.

[JohnFogarty]

The sally port is very easy to do solo.

You drive through the door from the courtyard. You spin in place 2-3 times to make it very clear to the refs the door released contact from your robot and then you drive back through.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

The sally port is very easy to do solo.

You drive through the door from the courtyard. You spin in place 2-3 times to make it very clear to the refs the door released contact from your robot and then you drive back through.

We did this a few times at Utah.
Drawbridge is hard to do solo unless you make a fast manipulator to tap it with.

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

The sally port is very easy to do solo.

You drive through the door from the courtyard. You spin in place 2-3 times to make it very clear to the refs the door released contact from your robot and then you drive back through.

Yea spinning is a good strategy for it.. or if your like 16 the bomb squad and you have swerve (or you can strafe) just go sideways quickly to lose contact with the door and contact it again (hopefully the ref catches it) but yeah the sally port is manageable solo.