Banging the driver station

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Not reading the rules and updates and understanding the consequences is also an action with consequences.

While the head referee is the final interpreter of the rules, they cannot change them & are supposed to interpret them as written. There are no rules against hitting the field hard enough to dislodge driver stations. A bit of grey area for egregious or intentionally damaging conduct, but that is a high bar to cross.

Having said that, intentionally ramming the field with the intent of dislodging driver station is certainly against Gracious Professionalism.

If you replaced the driver station with the robot would your opinion change? Would you still suggest that it is a team's fault if they sit there and a robot drives into them at full speed? If they didn't move out of "the way "it would make it their fault?

Originally Posted by neshera

Interesting thread.
What would the commenters think about a robot that, either in Auto or Tele-Op, unintentionally repeatedly rammed in to other robots at full speed, hard enough to damage/disable the other robot?
Would a notification that robots should be built to withstand high-speed impacts excuse such behavior?
Would a notification that robots should be built to withstand high-speed impacts absolve the ramming robot of yellow/red cards?
Would we condone a team building/driving such a robot?

My point is, the drivers' station equipment is something teams purchase, program, build, modify - just like our robots. It is not inspiring to see your hard work go down the drain because someone else found a task too daunting/difficult.

Our goal is to inspire students. Telling them it is their fault for not securing their equipment well enough, or that they didn't buy robust (read: expensive) enough equipment, or to just "deal with it" when entire matches or entire regionals are destroyed for them does not seem to me to be the right attitude.

This is pretty much what I am trying to say.

[AWoL]

Today in semi-finals a robot on the alliance we faced was known to smash into the driver station wall every match in autonomous. To prepare for that we put our logitech controllers behind our already-velcroed laptop, however when they hit our station they actually managed to bang the lid of our laptop down such that we didn't have control of the robot for about the first 5-10 seconds of the match. After this incident, the head ref told us that in the next match we could hold our driver station (two controllers and a laptop) in place if we saw that they were about to hit us, as long as we didn't give the driver station any input. We ended up not having to do this because of the defenses we selected, but I think this was a great way to deal with the situation on the ref's part.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by AWoL

The head ref told us that in the next match we could hold our driver station (two controllers and a laptop) in place if we saw that they were about to hit us, as long as we didn't give the driver station any input. We ended up not having to do this because of the defenses we selected, but I think this was a great way to deal with the situation on the ref's part.

You didn't technically need the Head Ref's consent to start doing that, though it is helpful. G14/15 do have the clauses to allow you to interact with the Operator Console if it's (or personal/robot safety) are in danger.

[davidono]

There was an instance where this happened at The Chestnut Hill district event where a robot rammed into the drivers station and dislodged our controllers and our laptop fell on the ground. Although this was not a repeated action from this team I can see where this would appear as very aggravating and why you would expect a penalty from such behavior.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

...I thought this thread would be about having teams stop banging on the driver station during team announcements. I was disappointed.

Karthik was high kicking the glass at UMass Dartmouth to introduce teams. I guess he gets a little enthusiastic.

I was cringing until I saw he really wasn't touching it. (Not for his foot, mind you; I didn't want to quickly replace the driver wall )

By the way, there were a couple of times robots would push the driver wall back. Which isn't easy, considering the weight and velcro. One time it was four inches! Viva la AndyMark fields!

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Roger

Karthik was high kicking the glass at UMass Dartmouth to introduce teams.

Something about a pair of Jordan's will get your feet off the ground.

[Richard Wallace]

It's not the shoes. Karthik can fly because he is really The Great Gazoo.

[Roger]

Plus he starts from the Defenses to get a running start... but I'm probably giving away trade secrets.

[D-Milky]

Originally Posted by rsisk

I am only referring to robots under operator control in teleop.


Autonomous robots, I can "understand" accidentally banging the DS, and this was addressed in an update.

I would be thinking the same way as you if one of the robots hadn't smashed into the wall so hard in autonomous as to bend the drivers wall inwards. No foul was given, but despite the velcro on our drivers station, pushed it almost to the point of falling off.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

If you replaced the driver station with the robot would your opinion change? Would you still suggest that it is a team's fault if they sit there and a robot drives into them at full speed? If they didn't move out of "the way "it would make it their fault?

I think a reasonable change would be to call a field fault if a drivers station got knocked of during autonomous, but that is not the current rule. I am only reading the rules as they are, not as I would like them to be. But yes if our driver station was knocked off, I would be upset while realizing it is within the rules. If our robot was hitting the wall that hard in autonomous, I would have the my team change the code or disable the autonomous. Hitting the wall with the intention of damaging the field or driver station could be called egregious. The trouble there is knowing the intent otherwise it is within the rules. The only people that can change the rules is the GDC they can be reached here. frcteams@usfirst.org

[tongue in cheek]If a team sits there while a robot drives into them full speed would be at least a little bit the referees fault for letting them on the field during a match.[/tongue in cheek]

As a side note, at the Georgia District Columbus event, teams where hitting the defenses hard enough to damage them. All where warned that after a warning on the field, they would be penalized.

[BetaHelix]

IMO if your driver station falls off its your own fault. I don't want to sound mean, but FIRST provides Velcro on the DS shelf for a reason. At CIR over last weekend we saw a couple of teams lose their DSs to auto slams. In the end one of them ignored the Velcro and went straight to a C-clamp.

Long story short use the Velcro that's provided, and your DS should be fine. If your controllers are falling off, Velcro them down too.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by BetaHelix

IMO if your driver station falls off its your own fault. I don't want to sound mean, but FIRST provides Velcro on the DS shelf for a reason. At CIR over last weekend we saw a couple of teams lose their DSs to auto slams. In the end one of them ignored the Velcro and went straight to a C-clamp.

Long story short use the Velcro that's provided, and your DS should be fine. If your controllers are falling off, Velcro them down too.

Velcro didn't help anyone or anything at SCH this weekend. The indicator light, e-stop, and team number read out flew off the driver station as well, could have seriously hurt someone. Teams using C-clamps this year should be applauded.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Dancin103

Velcro didn't help anyone or anything at SCH this weekend. The indicator light, e-stop, and team number read out flew off the driver station as well, could have seriously hurt someone. Teams using C-clamps this year should be applauded.

If the indicator light and team number flew off because a robot ran into the wall, they were not properly installed.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

If the indicator light and team number flew off because a robot ran into the wall, they were not properly installed.

And on top of that you can't give a team a yellow or red card because the field is setup wrong. That is grounds for a field fault and redo.

[SteveGarward]

Originally Posted by BetaHelix

IMO if your driver station falls off its your own fault. I don't want to sound mean, but FIRST provides Velcro on the DS shelf for a reason...

While you may have your opinion and are entitled to it, be careful of inflammatory comments without experience.

We had our DS knocked off at CIR this weekend as well, despite having velcro on it to secure it, as we have had on that OI case for the last 4 years. This did absolutely nothing in our case. I have never seen a robot hit the wall as fast or as hard in my 7 years in FRC. And when you are watching your own robot at the other end of the field to see if its auto worked, you aren't necessarily watching what's coming at the wall in front of you.

We had maybe half a second to react before the DS was just above the floor, laptop now closed, and hanging by cables. We lost all manipulator controls for that match, and the USB port they were plugged in to did not work properly again. It seems we also lost the other USB port in use at the time, which later was intermittent and unreliable, and at this point, seems to be the reason we lost drive control in the middle of our last two semifinals.

We are buying a new DS laptop today as a result.

Did we use velcro? Yes. Could we have stepped forward to catch it? With Spiderman reflexes, yes. Were the refs within the rules to not replay the match? Yes. Did I have a very unhappy drive team? Yes. Did the team adjust their auto? Yes.

Was it our fault? No, I don't think so.