Flipping Rule

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by joeojazz

Hello at our competition in Midland Michigan this week some robots came close to tipping us over in the playoffs. I was wondering if there were any rules preventing them from doing so, or if there was a penalty if they did.

The key phrase here is really "came close to". There is no rule for "intent to tip, but didn't" or anything like that, and for good reason. It's just too easy for it to accidentally happen, and ideally both robots return to the ground without tipping in this situation.

In the course of a normal pushing match between robots with high traction wheels, especially with bumpers high above the drive line, momentary tips where one or both robots leave the ground for a fraction of a second are very normal. When this happens, the pushing driver should back off on the controls to prevent the robot from fully tipping and allowing it to come back down to the ground to rest. If this driver continues to push forward, particularly if they contact the bottom of the robot they are pushing, and then takes the robot off of their wheels, then it is possible that they will get the tipping penalty, depending on a variety of factors (how tippable the opposing robot is, when did the tipper robot back off, etc).

[c.shu]

Originally Posted by tr6scott

So the action has to be ruled by the Judge as an intentional act of our strategy.
Being that we (TORC 2137) was playing D, which is allowed by the rules, and that the bot that was flipped, (don't remember number, it was in the semis "at Waterford" which I can not find posted on youtube) was actively engaging us, and other times we had hit them and backed off prior to flipping them, we were not penalized at all.

S2-E2 Robozone. 17:43

[prozack19]

Originally Posted by rsisk

There was a red card issued for flipping a robot during the QF at Seneca yesterday

hey we are the ones who got tipped on our backs.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

There was a good example of this in F2 at Lakeview. With about 50 seconds left, 85 and 5980 get into a head-on confrontation in front of the blue tower. BoB wins and the blue bot goes over backwards, out for the rest of the match. You can clearly see the Head Ref calling the foul (the only one assessed against red that match) a second or two later. No yellow card.

IMHO, that is not a G24 "tipping". It doesn't seem like there was a "strategy" to cause the tipping. Blue kept coming at Red, and Red pushed back.

It could be a G24 "initiating deliberate contact" within the frame perimeter. When Blue tipped, it seems like Red might have contacted the bottom (within the frame perimeter) of the Blue Bot.

[YoshiCity]

An alliance was assessed a yellow card in playoffs at North Shore after attempting to shove a defensive bot out of the way, an almost, but not, tipping them in the process. The head ref called it egregious and aggressive ramming, however the defensive bot was perfectly in tact afterwards. One other thing to note is that the entire situation occurred behind a sally port, making it impossible for the offensive alliance to see well what was happening.

[antman]

Our alliance got assessed a red card for G24 in our third semi at PNW Mt. Vernon. In this case we were on offense and our alliance partner flipped the defender. Video https://youtu.be/l-T_Vg--H8o?list=PL...6cgVS3_jh&t=63

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by antman

Our alliance got assessed a red card for G24 in our third semi at PNW Mt. Vernon. In this case we were on offense and our alliance partner flipped the defender. Video https://youtu.be/l-T_Vg--H8o?list=PL...6cgVS3_jh&t=63

I can see that one. Blue robot was partially tipped, and red robot kept pushing. Blue Robot was pushed onto its bumper, and then Red kept pushing it a foot or two before Blue fully tipped. Once Blue was on its side (bumper), you could argue that G23 comes into play, and it becomes a protected robot for 10 seconds to give it a chance to untip itself. You can also argue a G24 (contact inside the frame perimeter) which occurred when the Blue robot was on its side (Red contacted the undercarriage of Blue, which is within Blue's frame perimeter).

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by rsisk

There was a red card issued for flipping a robot during the QF at Seneca yesterday

Here is the video cued to the incident
https://youtu.be/T4hh_PJwARw?t=21871
After 869 and 1279 got in the tent formation, 1279 continued to drive forward eventually resulting in a tip after some distance. This was judged G24 with incapacitation, so a FOUL and RED CARD. Other near tips in that match where 1279 backed off before finishing the tip were not penalized.

[IronicDeadBird]

My understanding is if you flip a robot or start to flip a robot you have incap'd it and have prevented it from moving, this qualifies as a pin and doing so for an extended period of time is punishable. From the rules on pinning it sounds like you could start a flip and have it down as pinning, however finishing it or having the other robot flip themselves on you isn't covered anywhere in the rules as far as I can tell.

[blackwood]

We didn't need any defensive help flipping our robot. We were able to do it successfully all on our own in the very first match in Arkansas. You can see it at the 1:44 mark in this video. Fortunately it was our only flip of the tournament, things went pretty smoothly after that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGjUA3AsTlo

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

If you hit a robot with a high CoG and it tips, then you clearly do not deserve to be penalized

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by rich2202

I can see that one. Blue robot was partially tipped, and red robot kept pushing.

I was able to go behind the driver's station (I was a queuer at that event, so I got some back-seat views), and from their viewpoint, they would not have been able to see the robot they were pushing over due to the sally port; they probably thought they were stuck on a boulder. But they definitely had the option to back off, hence the card. Just in case anyone tries to say it was intentional. Those guys wouldn't do that.

This has really been the year of the red card... at least 3 occasions of it happening, and another few where it could have happened. amazing what happens when there's a lot of defense/contact between robots, wedge shaped manipulators, and robots with high clearance drivetrains :v

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by joeojazz

We are in their zone trying to score. Also was their a penalty when this happen couldn't find the video.

All matches from the Midland District are linked on the match pages on TBA (though for some reason the video icons are not shown). Alternatively, they can be found on FiM's YouTube channel. Also, having looked at the videos from your 4 elimination matches, the penalties that were called appeared to be for other infractions, not for "almost tipping" or anything like that.


My personal opinion on tipping penalties is that if a robot tips/flips due to normal bumper contact with another robot while both bots are flat on the carpet and there's no other interference, then it's the fault of the tipped robots team for building a robot that's too tippy and not the fault of the defender who is otherwise following all the rules. If this isn't the case, you could essentially build a robot that was easily tipped to draw yellow/red cards on other teams and just claim ignorance.

If you don't want to tip, lower your bumpers as much as allowed (and practical given defenses), lower your CoG, and add ballast if you're under 120lbs.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

My personal opinion on tipping penalties is that if a robot tips/flips due to normal bumper contact with another robot while both bots are flat on the carpet and there's no other interference, then it's the fault of the tipped robots team for building a robot that's too tippy ...

While I tend to agree with this sentiment to a certain extent, I can also see a very uniform message being delivered by referees at different events... "Don't tip robots."

It is very much like the hockey rule for high sticking where you are responsible for your stick. If it hits someone in the face... even if they weren't wearing a face shield, and even if you didn't mean to... heck, even if you didn't know you did it... you get the penalty. It's your stick, and it's your job to look after it.

If these calls had all gone the other way, and the rulings were "you can tip robots so long as you make it look like you weren't really trying to tip them", then I can see defensive strategies being devised to take advantage of this.

I totally get what you are saying... but congratulate the refs for sending a very clear message. Don't tip robots. You will be held responsible if you do. Even if you didn't really mean to. Just. Don't. Tip. Robots.

Jason

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

While I tend to agree with this sentiment to a certain extent, I can also see a very uniform message being delivered by referees at different events... "Don't tip robots."

It is very much like the hockey rule for high sticking where you are responsible for your stick. If it hits someone in the face... even if they weren't wearing a face shield, and even if you didn't mean to... heck, even if you didn't know you did it... you get the penalty. It's your stick, and it's your job to look after it.

If these calls had all gone the other way, and the rulings were "you can tip robots so long as you make it look like you weren't really trying to tip them", then I can see defensive strategies being devised to take advantage of this.

I totally get what you are saying... but congratulate the refs for sending a very clear message. Don't tip robots. You will be held responsible if you do. Even if you didn't really mean to. Just. Don't. Tip. Robots.

Jason

The difference though is that unlike Hockey, you don't always know where your robot is or what it's interacting with (or, for that matter, have control of it). A robot isn't physically attached to you, unlike a hockey stick (unless you're doing something stupid like throwing the hockey stick).

I guess my argument would be that teams in this years game aught to be perfectly capable of designing robots that don't tip when legally defended (unlike in 2010 where the bumper rules basically caused virtually any sustained robot-to-robot contact to result in one or both bots tipping). If the team is, to a reasonably astute observer not maliciously trying to tip the other robot, and not violating any other rules, the refs should not be automatically giving out cards.


Actually I find this topic somewhat similar to back in 2014 when people were complaining about defense being to rough and robot damage. I'm sorry, but if you don't want your frame crushed in during a game with a completely open playing field, don't build it out of <1/16" aluminum (or skipping an outer frame altogether and just using bumpers as the frame, like several teams did). A little common sense would go a long way for solving many of these issues.