Flipping Rule

[antman]

Our alliance got assessed a red card for G24 in our third semi at PNW Mt. Vernon. In this case we were on offense and our alliance partner flipped the defender. Video https://youtu.be/l-T_Vg--H8o?list=PL...6cgVS3_jh&t=63

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by antman

Our alliance got assessed a red card for G24 in our third semi at PNW Mt. Vernon. In this case we were on offense and our alliance partner flipped the defender. Video https://youtu.be/l-T_Vg--H8o?list=PL...6cgVS3_jh&t=63

I can see that one. Blue robot was partially tipped, and red robot kept pushing. Blue Robot was pushed onto its bumper, and then Red kept pushing it a foot or two before Blue fully tipped. Once Blue was on its side (bumper), you could argue that G23 comes into play, and it becomes a protected robot for 10 seconds to give it a chance to untip itself. You can also argue a G24 (contact inside the frame perimeter) which occurred when the Blue robot was on its side (Red contacted the undercarriage of Blue, which is within Blue's frame perimeter).

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by rich2202

I can see that one. Blue robot was partially tipped, and red robot kept pushing.

I was able to go behind the driver's station (I was a queuer at that event, so I got some back-seat views), and from their viewpoint, they would not have been able to see the robot they were pushing over due to the sally port; they probably thought they were stuck on a boulder. But they definitely had the option to back off, hence the card. Just in case anyone tries to say it was intentional. Those guys wouldn't do that.

This has really been the year of the red card... at least 3 occasions of it happening, and another few where it could have happened. amazing what happens when there's a lot of defense/contact between robots, wedge shaped manipulators, and robots with high clearance drivetrains :v

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by antman

Our alliance got assessed a red card for G24 in our third semi at PNW Mt. Vernon. In this case we were on offense and our alliance partner flipped the defender. Video https://youtu.be/l-T_Vg--H8o?list=PL...6cgVS3_jh&t=63

Probably because of the "follow through to flip" I see.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Probably because of the "follow through to flip" I see.

This is how I was taught tipping was called when I was on drive team as a student. It depends on whether you back off or keep driving into your opponent after they start to tip up. If they start to tip up, you back away, and they keep going and flip over, no foul. If you keep driving into them after they start to tip up, that's when the foul is called.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Knufire

This is how I was taught tipping was called when I was on drive team as a student. Whether you back off or keep driving into your opponent after they start to tip up. If they start to tip up, you back away, and they keep going and flip over, no foul. If you keep driving into them after they start to tip up, that's when the foul is called.

Yeah I wish it was this simple.

We had a different occasion than the one I described above, same year, no intent, not our stratagy; a top heavy robot tipped because we pushed on it. It rolled away and flipped. Same outcome, yellow card, penalty... protested, no change. Completely two different sides of the spectrum, no difference.

From what I am seeing in these videos, getting one of these calls is a crap shoot. I don't see in G24 where it says this excludes the defender. If the robot on the offense pushes back then this isn't a "Strategy aimed at". Give me a break. If not everything a driving team is doing isn't strategy they shouldn't be out there. If it is based on intent or forethought, the refs can't know what that is so how do they decide?

In reality, most of the rules are worded in a way which makes them elastic. G24 isn't immune. When I see these videos, hands down some teams were robbed when G24 wasn't enforced. Likewise they'll be times when it was enforced and shouldn't have been. So what else is new?

[dsherw00d]

Below video at the 1 min mark is one of our partners accidentally flipping an opponent that we were red carded for. Since it was quarters, we were DQ'd for that match. It was a frustrating call because it does not appear to be excessive force - just a top heavy robot that went over very very quickly. They had their high shooting arm opposite the contact point and it just brought it over with what appears to be a mild push. We were hit and hit others much much harder then that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGs0...rRujQ&index=12

We did have a great time, it's a great event, and we accomplished our goals while adhering to FIRST principals. In that respect, we win every year!!

[antman]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Probably because of the "follow through to flip" I see.

Yes exactly, and the announcer stated such at the 5:00 min mark of the same video: https://youtu.be/l-T_Vg--H8o?t=296

Also, during the follow through there was contact within the frame perimeter (bottom) that finished the flip. Contrast that with this non-call from PNW Wilsonville finals match 2 where there is bumper-to-bumper contact that results in a flip but no contact within frame perimeter:

https://youtu.be/DcdKqWhxtNI?t=70

I thought the red card in our match was a good call and the non-call against 4488 in the other match was also the right call. Obviously my team was disappointed at the red card but if we had been on the receiving end we would have been disappointed if a red card was not given.

[idahorobot]

How was the 2056 flip at Waterloo first match of the quarter finals different than the 2013 flip at Toronto East? Looked like the head ref had a long discussion. Tough position to be in.

I'm confused.

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by idahorobot

How was the 2056 flip at Waterloo first match of the quarter finals different than the 2013 flip at Toronto East.

I'm confused.

I am a little confused by that call as well. I feel like 2056 could have avoided tipping the other team.

[T3_1565]

I'm from the team that got flipped. I have not seen the team 2013 north bay event. But I'm also confused by the call. They drove us from the secret passage to the center of field.

It's an unfortunate call. From the driver station it looked easy to call. But from the refs point of view, who knows.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by T3_1565

I'm from the team that got flipped. I have not seen the team 2013 north bay event. But I'm also confused by the call. They drove us from the secret passage to the center of field.

It's an unfortunate call. From the driver station it looked easy to call. But from the refs point of view, who knows.

Any video of the call?

[KJS]

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by KJS

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

The way I see it IMO..the first two incapacitated the bot and were foul worthy as the team causing the tip had a chance to not tip and the bots were tall enough to see the tip and back off

The Third one obviously the Courtyard ref called a FOUL on Blue and entered the foul, but after a few seconds the bot got righted. So perhaps the foul was discussed after the game betwen the refs and waived off?

That is the only difference I see between Example 1 and Example 2 in comparison to Example 3


Same refs only difference is last example the bot got up and could play within 9 seconds so perhaps they felt it did not really affect the game that much , where in other two it seemed the tipped bots never recovered.

In fact a RED CARD could have been issued on first or second tip against the entire alliance as per rules

-------------------

G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or
entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy,
RED CARD

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by Boltman

The way I see it IMO..the first two incapacitated the bot and were foul worthy as the team causing the tip had a chance to not tip and the bots were tall enough to see the tip and back off

The Third one obviously the Courtyard ref called a FOUL on Blue and entered the foul, but after a few seconds the bot got righted. So perhaps the foul was discussed after the game betwen the refs and waived off?

That is the only difference I see between Example 1 and Example 2 in comparison to Example 3


Same refs only difference is last example the bot got up and could play within 9 seconds so perhaps they felt it did not really affect the game that much , where in other two it seemed the tipped bots never recovered.

In fact a RED CARD could have been issued on first or second tip against the entire alliance as per rules

-------------------

G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or
entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy,
RED CARD

Spot on, the two times we got tipped resulted in two broken welds and one a piece of square one inch tubing broken in half. Should have been a red card for the first flip.

I feel like the call in the first match was strange because 3230, 2996, and 1977 got scale points AFTER they tipped us (for contact in the last 20 seconds) which won the match for them. If this is not a clear G11 violation I don't know what is.

Also, niether flips were due to a "pushing match" both were intense T-bones.