North Bay Regional (2016)

[gp2013]

It was NOT intentional. If it was our strategy to push over a robot we would hit with our back end. With Rhino Tracks when we push from the front we ride up onto robots and nearly flip ourselves. It has happened to us at GTRE. Having worked hard over the past two years to instill a culture of respect on our teams (our Vex team has won awards for GP and refusing to press for DQs even when they were clearly allowed) this comes as a real kick in the gut from FRC.

We are currently, as a team, writing a response to the dismissal of our concerns by FIRST executives over the lack of fair play in FRC matches in general and over several issues that took place at the event.

I just wanted to make it clear on CD that this is not our style of gameplay.

Please understand that our issue is with FIRST. We love the North Bay Regional and all the friendliness that surrounds it. Kudos to all of the volunteers, organizers, Nipissing University and the City of North Bay for throwing such a great party!

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by gp2013

It was NOT intentional. If it was our strategy to push over a robot we would hit with our back end. With Rhino Tracks when we push from the front we ride up onto robots and nearly flip ourselves. It has happened to us at GTRE. Having worked hard over the past two years to instill a culture of respect on our teams (our Vex team has won awards for GP and refusing to press for DQs even when they were clearly allowed) this comes as a real kick in the gut from FRC.

We are currently, as a team, writing a response to the dismissal of our concerns by FIRST executives over the lack of fair play in FRC matches in general and over several issues that took place at the event.

I just wanted to make it clear on CD that this is not our style of gameplay.

Please understand that our issue is with FIRST. We love the North Bay Regional and all the friendliness that surrounds it. Kudos to all of the volunteers, organizers, Nipissing University and the City of North Bay for throwing such a great party!

Oh, I wasn't saying it was intentional, just that that was the call. I think everyone in the arena besides the refs thought it wasn't intentional.

[gp2013]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

Oh, I wasn't saying it was intentional, just that that was the call. I think everyone in the arena besides the refs thought it wasn't intentional.

Thanks Jay. You have no idea how much I appreciate hearing that! We have been to regionals where we haven't made elims. We have been to regionals where our robot has died repeatedly. We have never left an event feeling so demoralized and defeated by events as this one so thank you for those words.

[FireAmpersand]

Kinda hard too see you guys go like that. We know that isn't not your play style and can vouch for you if anyone thinks that way. The best thing to do is to reload and get ready for Western Canada and show the rest of first that it was a mistake and that it won't slow you down. 4627 awaits you revival down here in Calgary. Best of luck too you guys and see you in a week.

[christheman200]

I won't pass judgement on whether I felt it was intentional or not, but I felt horrible that you would be sent home on that one call. I can't imagine going through that! At least you should know that your bot is certainly one of the most respected, and certainly the most physically feared in the world.

[dtengineering]

There were several red cards for tipping handed out last week according to discussion on CD. I personally saw one at the PNW Mount Vernon event.

The team that did the tipping was a respected team with a history of GP play. The team that they tipped was also a respected team with a history of GP play. The red card eliminated the alliance from the semis... Neither alliance wanted the match to end that way, I don't think.

The unanimous call by refs across several independent tournaments has been that tipping is illegal, whether you meant to or not. My interpretation is that it is much like high sticking in hockey... Just as a hockey player is responsible for their stick, the drive team is responsible for their robot. If your opponent starts to tip, you MUST back off to prevent the tip.

I wasn't at North Bay, and have no idea in what context you are interpreting this result, but at PNW Mount Vernon, the team that received the red card in the semis, after first appealing the call, returned to ask the head ref if he'd sign the card for them. I don't think they'd ever received one before! I believe I also overheard a member of the drive team comment that the tip looked different on video than it did from the driver station.

It IS possible to get a red card while still being a GP team. But to be clear, a red card for tipping seems to be a very uniform call across multiple events and multiple weeks... "Don't tip robots" appears to be a uniform standard.

Jason

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

There were several red cards for tipping handed out last week according to discussion on CD. I personally saw one at the PNW Mount Vernon event.

The team that did the tipping was a respected team with a history of GP play. The team that they tipped was also a respected team with a history of GP play. The red card eliminated the alliance from the semis... Neither alliance wanted the match to end that way, I don't think.

The unanimous call by refs across several independent tournaments has been that tipping is illegal, whether you meant to or not. My interpretation is that it is much like high sticking in hockey... Just as a hockey player is responsible for their stick, the drive team is responsible for their robot. If your opponent starts to tip, you MUST back off to prevent the tip.

I wasn't at North Bay, and have no idea in what context you are interpreting this result, but at PNW Mount Vernon, the team that received the red card in the semis, after first appealing the call, returned to ask the head ref if he'd sign the card for them. I don't think they'd ever received one before! I believe I also overheard a member of the drive team comment that the tip looked different on video than it did from the driver station.

It IS possible to get a red card while still being a GP team. But to be clear, a red card for tipping seems to be a very uniform call across multiple events and multiple weeks... "Don't tip robots" appears to be a uniform standard.

Jason

So if I build a tall, unstable robot and it tips over when my opponent taps me on the side, I win? Not a good precedent to set.

Obviously that's not what happened at North Bay or PNW, but I worry about this precedent hurting more teams when they unintentionally flip another team.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

So if I build a tall, unstable robot and it tips over when my opponent taps me on the side, I win? Not a good precedent to set.

Obviously that's not what happened at North Bay or PNW, but I worry about this precedent hurting more teams when they unintentionally flip another team.

There is a good reason I volunteer as a tech inspector and judge, and not a ref. I prefer to not have to make calls like that.

What I do admire, however, is what appears to be great uniformity amongst FRC refs at different events and in different weeks in consistently making similar calls. Whether you like the calls or not, the consistency is such that I am sure teams will be taking note and making special effort to avoid tipping their opponents.

I'm not sure the rule book says "teams must avoid flipping their opponents" in those precise words, but that's what the refs have been saying and I think I'd pay attention if I were driving a robot!

Jason

[BAB the Builder]

Originally Posted by Jim Wilks

Anyone know what happened in quaterfinals 3 match 2 so that Red got 0 for the match?

The head ref decided that it was an intentional incapacitation of 1325 (G24). Because of the positioning of 2013, none of the refs had a clear view of what happened. From the stands and driver station it was pretty clear that 2013 did not do it intentionally.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

There is a good reason I volunteer as a tech inspector and judge, and not a ref. I prefer to not have to make calls like that.

What I do admire, however, is what appears to be great uniformity amongst FRC refs at different events and in different weeks in consistently making similar calls. Whether you like the calls or not, the consistency is such that I am sure teams will be taking note and making special effort to avoid tipping their opponents.

I'm not sure the rule book says "teams must avoid flipping their opponents" in those precise words, but that's what the refs have been saying and I think I'd pay attention if I were driving a robot!

Jason

Jason,
I'd like to see the data on this because after watching several webcasts over the course of competition season, this is the only week where such a correlation could be made just by looking at the results.

On a side note, there is one call I've seen done incorrectly, and that is calling a pinning on a robot that is completely in the middle of the courtyard. Pinning against a field element is clear, but NOT pinning in the middle of an open field. Seeing refs do a pin count just had me shaking my head. Pinning against air is not pinning.

[gp2013]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

There were several red cards for tipping handed out last week according to discussion on CD. I personally saw one at the PNW Mount Vernon event.

The team that did the tipping was a respected team with a history of GP play. The team that they tipped was also a respected team with a history of GP play. The red card eliminated the alliance from the semis... Neither alliance wanted the match to end that way, I don't think.

The unanimous call by refs across several independent tournaments has been that tipping is illegal, whether you meant to or not. My interpretation is that it is much like high sticking in hockey... Just as a hockey player is responsible for their stick, the drive team is responsible for their robot. If your opponent starts to tip, you MUST back off to prevent the tip.

I wasn't at North Bay, and have no idea in what context you are interpreting this result, but at PNW Mount Vernon, the team that received the red card in the semis, after first appealing the call, returned to ask the head ref if he'd sign the card for them. I don't think they'd ever received one before! I believe I also overheard a member of the drive team comment that the tip looked different on video than it did from the driver station.

It IS possible to get a red card while still being a GP team. But to be clear, a red card for tipping seems to be a very uniform call across multiple events and multiple weeks... "Don't tip robots" appears to be a uniform standard.

Jason

Jason that is the problem. This was the second robot to get knocked over at the event. No red card on the first. Also fouls were clearly called MUCH more heavily on one side of the field than the other and we raised this issue with the head ref twice only to be ignored. We asked them to rotate refs. No. We also had an issue where a mentor from another team asked one of our students to help him grieve a call. The ref was respectful while the mentor was there but left mid explanation to referee the next match. When he returned after match play the mentor had left. At this point the ref was rude and dismissive to our student who was still waiting for the rest of their explanation of the call.

I am not saying that these things were unfair against us per se. Just that they were unfair. Winning is not the issue. Fairness is. As head refs are understandably hard to come by FIRST would rather allow unfair play than "micromanage" their head refs. Their comment not mine.

We would rather FIRST pay for refs and ensure fair play for the students and mentors across FIRST who bust their butts each year to raise money, volunteer time, sweat, and blood to see these events happen. We centainly pay enough for it.

We will get past this. Of course we will but we are going to Make it Loud. Watch for Fair Play FIRST buttons at our next event and learn how to help us raise the issue with the FIRST executive.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by gp2013

We asked them to rotate refs. No. We also had an issue where a mentor from another team asked one of our students to help him grieve a call. The ref was respectful while the mentor was there but left mid explanation to referee the next match. When he returned after match play the mentor had left. At this point the ref was rude and dismissive to our student who was still waiting for the rest of their explanation of the call.

85% sure they do actually rotate refs every x matches, I haven't actually specifically looked at it this year, however in years past they have absolutely rotated refs. I mean the refs are tested pretty hard, and I can understand a head ref not wanting to swap his refs around from the pattern they are used to because a team asked them to. I don't imagine a swap could have done much, but then again I wasn't at the event.

I can't really comment on anything else there.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by gp2013

Jason that is the problem. This was the second robot to get knocked over at the event. No red card on the first. Also fouls were clearly called MUCH more heavily on one side of the field than the other and we raised this issue with the head ref twice... We asked them to rotate refs. No. We also had an issue where a mentor from another team asked one of our students to help him grieve a call. The ref was respectful while the mentor was there but left mid explanation to referee the next match. When he returned after match play the mentor had left. At this point the ref was rude and dismissive to our student who was still waiting for the rest of their explanation of the call.

I am not saying that these things were unfair against us per se. Just that they were unfair. Winning is not the issue. Fairness is. As head refs are understandably hard to come by FIRST would rather allow unfair play than "micromanage" their head refs. Their comment not mine.

We would rather FIRST pay for refs and ensure fair play for the students and mentors across....

Sorry to hear you feel that things were unfair. In 14 years of FRC it has been my experience that the quality of reffing is at least as high as in any other sport, professional or amateur, that I have observed. Do people complain? It's probably not a sport if people don't complain about refs. Don't even get a Canucks fan going about the non-calls in the Stanley Cup finals against Boston!

In general, if you leave it up to the refs to decide the match, you let it get too close.

Jason

[Tem1514 Mentor]

Wow what is a win without the "Game Ball"

After the win I went around and collected the drive team names to keep in our case at school. The order of names is "Coach, Driver, Human players(2) and the programmer. Would love to the entire team but the ball is not big enough.

Oh so everyone knows, I'm the coach for team 2935 NACI and of course many thanks to team 1241 for picking us again. Also it was a blast playing with 1310 as well. But my most profound thanks has to go out to all the kids on the team that have worked so hard and come so far.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by gp2013

As head refs are understandably hard to come by FIRST would rather allow unfair play than "micromanage" their head refs.

Hey Gary,

There's a lot that can be said about FRC reffing (it's well known that I've said a lot over the years), but despite that I don't think anyone can reasonably claim that FIRST prefers to allow unfair play to happen. There's definitely a concerted effort from GDC all the way down to the local referees to make things as fair as possible. Yes, there are still mistakes and the process can be improved, but I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that FIRST is knowingly allowing unfair play.

I'm glad your team is already looking ahead to get past this and working on coming up with concrete suggestions on how to improve things for all participants in the future. I'm sure if you share some of these suggestions here, the community will gladly help and provide some of their own. Hopefully we can all come up with some ideas to help minimize the chances that a team walks away from an event feeling the way you did.