Alliance Request

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

One piece of advise that hasn't been given yet, is to build relationships with teams long before they are ever in position to pick you. It's probably the least important reason to build relationships with other teams but having friends on the teams doing the picking just means they already know you and what your team is capable of. Go to off-season events, do group demonstrations, have team socials, etc.

This.

Picture it, Peachtree Regional 2011. 2815 is there with none of our college students (one professor popped an exam on all of them), a pretty slim crew, and a robot that was crated without much in the way of hard driving. It shows on the field Friday, when we die or break something in all but one match. I was the coach (by default, basically) and it was pretty embarrassing coming off of two solid robot years. But we keep working through the different issues, and I share the hard-luck story with a few friends on 2415 and 1771 (the latter of which we were partners with on Friday--their minibot won us a match where we broke).

We got to Saturday morning and a match with clear #1 seed 2415, where they ask if we can play defense. We hadn't had a chance to really work our arm because we kept dying, but we had a three-year driver that knew his stuff. "Suuuure!" We get one clean match off, get the win...and then break in our last match. I'm billed as the resident optimist of any team, but even I knew we had no business being in the playoff rounds. No amount of hard-sell marketing was going to change that.

Yet for reasons I still don't fully understand five years after the fact, 2415 and their first selection 1771 believed me when I said it was a new issue each time, liked working with us behind the glass, and believed our driving and defense was more desirable than the other 24 teams that were available for them to choose even if we had a glass jaw. Six matches later, we're going to St. Louis.

Shoot straight, be positive, and sometimes you'll see your faith rewarded.

[nighterfighter]

Originally Posted by Billfred

snip

I was the team representative during alliance selection that year...I still remember hearing you yell "WOOOOO!", even over all the noise, when we picked you. And we still tell our new members stories of piling random objects (hammers I believe) into your robot to buff up your weight, to play defense. One of our other mentors still has the cockasaurus rex t-shirt!

On topic:

Depending on where you are seeded and how you have performed, you should know if you are going to be a 1st pick or a 2nd pick. If you are going to be a 2nd pick, you will most likely be playing defense or some other utility role. (This year it might be breaching, or maybe you can specialize in doing a solo drawbridge/sally port). Use that to your advantage. Gently remind teams that you can cross that defense by yourself, and can grab a ball, cross the defense, then drop the ball off for your alliance partner to score in the high goal. Or mention how you can add a goal-blocking mechanism to your robot if needed.

[Andrew Chauvin]

Last year at the Pacific Northwest Championships, our team was ranked in the 40's, and so our team just did a frame per second analysis of our can grabber, which turned out to be the second fastest one there. We went around and showed it off to all of the top teams, and then we were picked up by the three seed as a second pick and we won the event. My advice is to come up with a selling point that could work, be it a strategy, a component, or even a long shot idea and try and talk to the picking teams the day of. The worst that could happen is you don't change anything.

[Nuwanda]

This is my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. I think there are two different types of 'advertising'. Going to a team's pit ten minutes before alliance selection and asking them to pick you doesn't work. Most people will just be annoyed by it. Even explaining all your good qualities can still turn off a lot of teams. However, if you go to a team while qualifying matches are still being played, explain the feature that you think would be a good fit for their alliance, and show that strategy in a match (or several), that will go over much better. I was talking to my friend from another team about a pick I didn't understand and their explanation was that this team had gone out of their way to show a versatility in strategy that aligned with what they were looking for. You can't just say that you can do something, you have to show it and make sure they see it. That is the most successful way of 'advertising' yourself.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

This is my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. I think there are two different types of 'advertising'. Going to a team's pit ten minutes before alliance selection and asking them to pick you doesn't work. Most people will just be annoyed by it. Even explaining all your good qualities can still turn off a lot of teams. However, if you go to a team while qualifying matches are still being played, explain the feature that you think would be a good fit for their alliance, and show that strategy in a match (or several), that will go over much better. I was talking to my friend from another team about a pick I didn't understand and their explanation was that this team had gone out of their way to show a versatility in strategy that aligned with what they were looking for. You can't just say that you can do something, you have to show it and make sure they see it. That is the most successful way of 'advertising' yourself.

I think the optimum time to advertise is when doors open prior to matches on Day 2, that is usually our routine if we are not high enough to be captain. I want us to be on their radar (and get their eyes on us) the rest of Day 2 and we go about 12-13 deep and out of those 12-13 teams we probably contact three or four that compliment us. If we are captain its pretty much the same process , just knowing you hold the cards. Even so you want to be paired with the best team that WANTS to be with you and compliments you. You want the best chance to succeed.

Then rest of the day we just play ball and our scouts watch all potential captains for strengths and weaknesses for later in the day elimination matches and work on elimination game plans.

6 week build is all about building a capable bot that is the best at something (be rare) .

In each regional...

Day 1 is all about ranking high (we aim for top 20% to be in that prime pick area rank 12 or lower I'm happy) and winning your matches to give teams a night to pour over the data and watch videos of all pick worthy teams. We also make a minimum top 20-28 pick list and verify it on day 2.

Day 2 is all about ranking your self honestly "as an impartial scout" and making sure higher teams also know about you that you desire to play with. First thing that morning. Remember if you are Captain 5,6,7 or 8 you KNOW you have your work cut out for you to win that regional...so a non-captain team that comes to you with a plausible winning plan and deep pick list can be just the ticket and make your day.

We made alliance captain 8 and our 3rd bot VERY VERY HAPPY when we as a potentially very strong alliance 8 took down alliance 1 handily in 2 games..that bodes well for our future.... its all about building those longer term partnerships for future seasons and remissness about previous seasons . Good will goes a long way our list of love to go to eliminations teams grows every year. Main thing is to have fun..it is fun...and never be the weak link. Hold yourself accountable.

My scouts look for two things.... "consistency and reliability" because in eliminations any weakness get exposed

[Boltman]

Alliance request = customized alliance strength "which is good"

I am a firm believer in "advertising" to pre-selected alliance partners. I am not a fan of saying to any team "don't pick us because we want " I think that is corny and have had that happen to us. We go the other direction and talk to those we want to pair with and limit conversation with those we don't feel we are a good fit for (for both our benefit)

Face it, there are those you work well with or those that compliment your team in some fashion and there is no shame in seeking a preferential alliance make-up in eliminations. Eliminations hard to win , you need all the help you can get.

We scout every match so our detailed scouting info is valuable to other teams we use that to start the conversation with teams we don't already know , those that do know us know we do our scouting already, many have had us a partners before too, so they know how we operate and what we bring to an alliance.

I believe in every elimination there are those alliances who are matched and those that aren't and usually the matched alliances prevail.

The way we do it is if we are captain then of course we choose, if not then based on knowing our bot and knowing all the top 8-12 potential captains , we then visit those that may be a good fit with us and those that don't match/or duplicate us we probably don't visit. We talk potential winning strategy and what would win the regional we are at. We then ensure them we can find another team to compliment our new-found alliance strength. Every bot we have selected third ourselves has been solid due to scouting.

This works for us, we usually end up with a strong to very strong alliance..but remember this only works if your team is solid and you do extensive scouting as a bonus. Otherwise why would a captain pick you? "Sell yourselves based on where you actually rank (be honest about your capabilities) " and that will do it...take care of your part and the rest will follow.

Once in a while we "learn" of a team off our radar because they reached out to us... perhaps they had a bad day 1 BUT resolved it and it shows in the rankings climb...I appreciate teams that talk to use to explain "why", if the data supports it and the story then they all the sudden they make our 2nd day pick list and a few watches the second day.

It is all about "doing your best" and you rely on two other teams so why not try to get the best partners for all three teams ? It makes total sense.

[evanperryg]

Various thoughts on everything being discussed here:
-I've been in a situation where a team that we didn't want to be picked by came to us and talked about alliances. We were honest, telling them that we believed that there were teams we would benefit from being with more. Honesty is both the most gracious and the most professional thing you can give someone, just know how to deliver it nicely.

-I've noticed teams that are particularly rude or disrespectful. Many of those teams have gone on our "don't pick" list event after event simply because they've gained a reputation for being toxic. These teams don't know how to act professionally, so they don't belong on our alliance.

-We've had tough schedules, it happens. Every team eventually has that match with that team that came in with a kitbot in pieces and asked "what do we do." Speaking from experience, the best thing to do is to get them up and running, and just make sure they know the fundamentals of the game. If you give them simple tasks and a bit of support, you will win matches you didn't think you could possibly win.

-Teams that come to the pit to haggle their way onto picklists are annoying. Don't be that team, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Your strength as an alliance partner is decided by how you perform on the field, how well your drive team works with ours, and how professionally your team as a whole conducts itself.

-In match, don't do things you wouldn't normally do just because you think it'll capture the eye of elite teams' scouters. With the limited depth of analysis that most teams do, that match will just show up as a blip in the data and you'll be written off as inconsistent. Play in a way that is advantageous to your alliance. The only exception I can think of is defense... sometimes. Good scouts can spot a team that consistently plays with good strategy, and those are the kinds of teams that will be picked.

[IronicDeadBird]

Instead of building a team dependent robot building a robot that can carry the team solves the "horrible matchup" situation.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

-In match, don't do things you wouldn't normally do just because you think it'll capture the eye of elite teams' scouters. With the limited depth of analysis that most teams do, that match will just show up as a blip in the data and you'll be written off as inconsistent. Play in a way that is advantageous to your alliance. The only exception I can think of is defense... sometimes. Good scouts can spot a team that consistently plays with good strategy, and those are the kinds of teams that will be picked.

I think it is important to understand what type of robots the top seeds will want to pick and showcase those abilities opposed to trying to win a qualification match with a strategy that won't get you picked*. At nearly every event there are a handful of bubble teams that would be better off switching to a support role (defense, feeding, low goal scoring, inbounding (2014)) than showcasing their sup-par scorer. If the top teams are looking for a robot to fill a specific support role and see you do it successfully in a few matches, they will likely forget that went went 1 for 15 shooting in your first 5 matches.

*Obviously follow your alliance's agreed upon strategy...

[Mr. Tatorscout]

Originally Posted by Edxu

Approach high-seeding teams. Questions that you'll mainly want to ask them run along the lines of "What are you looking for in a second pick alliance partner?". Another great way to communicate teams is to ask them if they want to see anything performance-wise out of your robot in matches.

There is a danger here in fishing for information. We've been to events where clearly someone was fishing for another high seeded team that was their friend (We sort of have do a lot of regionals away from our area, so we are often on the outside looking in). They were then overheard by another of our students saying "sorry, that didn't work. They wouldn't bite." to the aforementioned high seeded team. You run the risk of raising peoples' suspicions if you ask too pointed of a question about their picking strategy.

Know that if you are ranked low and the game requires defense, you should show defense Saturday morning without getting fouls. If you have cheesecaked blockers to add, add them Saturday morning. The high ranked teams will come talk to you if they need you to do something.

Definitely agree with others who have said not to talk to the high ranked teams Saturday before alliance picks. They have more important things to do than satisfy your curiosity. If you are trying to talk to them while they are finalizing their list, you are keeping them from doing what they need to do and making it extremely challenging to be graciously professional. If they are worth anything scoutingwise, they will have been watching pretty closely. I know it's maddening. We have been on both ends of the rankings over the years.

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by nighterfighter

I was the team representative during alliance selection that year...I still remember hearing you yell "WOOOOO!", even over all the noise, when we picked you. And we still tell our new members stories of piling random objects (hammers I believe) into your robot to buff up your weight, to play defense. One of our other mentors still has the cockasaurus rex t-shirt!

On topic:

Depending on where you are seeded and how you have performed, you should know if you are going to be a 1st pick or a 2nd pick. If you are going to be a 2nd pick, you will most likely be playing defense or some other utility role. (This year it might be breaching, or maybe you can specialize in doing a solo drawbridge/sally port). Use that to your advantage. Gently remind teams that you can cross that defense by yourself, and can grab a ball, cross the defense, then drop the ball off for your alliance partner to score in the high goal. Or mention how you can add a goal-blocking mechanism to your robot if needed.

At Rhode Island this year, I talked to the drive coach of the top 5 teams Saturday, and asked them which of two strategies they wanted to see out of our robot. Most picked "breach and ferry", and GUS wanted to see boulder scoring (we had a good match with them Friday). We got picked by #3 as a second round breach and ferry bot. I think GUS (#2) would have picked us for the same role, if we were still available. Our alliance made it to semifinals where we lost by ~5 both matches.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Billfred

This.

Picture it, Peachtree Regional 2011. 2815 is there with none of our college students (one professor popped an exam on all of them), a pretty slim crew, and a robot that was crated without much in the way of hard driving. It shows on the field Friday, when we die or break something in all but one match. I was the coach (by default, basically) and it was pretty embarrassing coming off of two solid robot years. But we keep working through the different issues, and I share the hard-luck story with a few friends on 2415 and 1771 (the latter of which we were partners with on Friday--their minibot won us a match where we broke).

We got to Saturday morning and a match with clear #1 seed 2415, where they ask if we can play defense. We hadn't had a chance to really work our arm because we kept dying, but we had a three-year driver that knew his stuff. "Suuuure!" We get one clean match off, get the win...and then break in our last match. I'm billed as the resident optimist of any team, but even I knew we had no business being in the playoff rounds. No amount of hard-sell marketing was going to change that.

Yet for reasons I still don't fully understand five years after the fact, 2415 and their first selection 1771 believed me when I said it was a new issue each time, liked working with us behind the glass, and believed our driving and defense was more desirable than the other 24 teams that were available for them to choose even if we had a glass jaw. Six matches later, we're going to St. Louis.

Shoot straight, be positive, and sometimes you'll see your faith rewarded.

There were many reasons we picked 2815. One of the most important aspects in a third partner is "how well do they work with you?". That aspect is often more important than how good the robot is. A prior relationship helps. Remember the private 4-team pits we had at Palmetto in 2009?