Flipping Rule

[idahorobot]

How was the 2056 flip at Waterloo first match of the quarter finals different than the 2013 flip at Toronto East? Looked like the head ref had a long discussion. Tough position to be in.

I'm confused.

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by idahorobot

How was the 2056 flip at Waterloo first match of the quarter finals different than the 2013 flip at Toronto East.

I'm confused.

I am a little confused by that call as well. I feel like 2056 could have avoided tipping the other team.

[T3_1565]

I'm from the team that got flipped. I have not seen the team 2013 north bay event. But I'm also confused by the call. They drove us from the secret passage to the center of field.

It's an unfortunate call. From the driver station it looked easy to call. But from the refs point of view, who knows.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by T3_1565

I'm from the team that got flipped. I have not seen the team 2013 north bay event. But I'm also confused by the call. They drove us from the secret passage to the center of field.

It's an unfortunate call. From the driver station it looked easy to call. But from the refs point of view, who knows.

Any video of the call?

[KJS]

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by KJS

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

The way I see it IMO..the first two incapacitated the bot and were foul worthy as the team causing the tip had a chance to not tip and the bots were tall enough to see the tip and back off

The Third one obviously the Courtyard ref called a FOUL on Blue and entered the foul, but after a few seconds the bot got righted. So perhaps the foul was discussed after the game betwen the refs and waived off?

That is the only difference I see between Example 1 and Example 2 in comparison to Example 3


Same refs only difference is last example the bot got up and could play within 9 seconds so perhaps they felt it did not really affect the game that much , where in other two it seemed the tipped bots never recovered.

In fact a RED CARD could have been issued on first or second tip against the entire alliance as per rules

-------------------

G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or
entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy,
RED CARD

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by Boltman

The way I see it IMO..the first two incapacitated the bot and were foul worthy as the team causing the tip had a chance to not tip and the bots were tall enough to see the tip and back off

The Third one obviously the Courtyard ref called a FOUL on Blue and entered the foul, but after a few seconds the bot got righted. So perhaps the foul was discussed after the game betwen the refs and waived off?

That is the only difference I see between Example 1 and Example 2 in comparison to Example 3


Same refs only difference is last example the bot got up and could play within 9 seconds so perhaps they felt it did not really affect the game that much , where in other two it seemed the tipped bots never recovered.

In fact a RED CARD could have been issued on first or second tip against the entire alliance as per rules

-------------------

G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or
entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy,
RED CARD

Spot on, the two times we got tipped resulted in two broken welds and one a piece of square one inch tubing broken in half. Should have been a red card for the first flip.

I feel like the call in the first match was strange because 3230, 2996, and 1977 got scale points AFTER they tipped us (for contact in the last 20 seconds) which won the match for them. If this is not a clear G11 violation I don't know what is.

Also, niether flips were due to a "pushing match" both were intense T-bones.

[kevin.li.rit]

What are you thoughts on this? The red alliance received a red card for this and there were no yellow cards prior to this match.

https://youtu.be/3bY5-YjrxgU?t=26s

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

What are you thoughts on this? The red alliance received a red card for this and there were no yellow cards prior to this match.

https://youtu.be/3bY5-YjrxgU?t=39s

IMO Since there are now TWO RED bots tipped and incapacitated, I agree with the RED card and the foul. G24

Again Blue could have backed off..their drivers were close to the action, seems they chose to tip.

[The other Gabe]

Once the video comes up you'll be able to see it, but Finals 1 at the Auburn District event (PNW) saw a double red card issued to the 1 seeded alliance for the intentional flipping of 2 robots in a single match, giving them a yellow card for the remaining matches (which they won).

Which is interesting, because I always thought that a red card was an automatic out - 1 and you're done.

[Thad House]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

Once the video comes up you'll be able to see it, but Finals 1 at the Auburn District event (PNW) saw a double red card issued to the 1 seeded alliance for the intentional flipping of 2 robots in a single match, giving them a yellow card for the remaining matches (which they won).

Which is interesting, because I always thought that a red card was an automatic out - 1 and you're done.

The stream did not show either of the tips however. Just the aftermath.

And a red card is only a DQ for the current match. Always has been. Then you carry a yellow card for the rest of the time.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by Thad House

The stream did not show either of the tips however. Just the aftermath.

And a red card is only a DQ for the current match. Always has been. Then you carry a yellow card for the rest of the time.

drat, I was hoping to actually see it... people were standing in my way so I didn't get to :v

and thanks for the clarification - I did not know how that rule worked

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by Boltman

IMO Since there are now TWO RED bots tipped and incapacitated, I agree with the RED card and the foul. G24

Again Blue could have backed off..their drivers were close to the action, seems they chose to tip.

Yep there are 2 tips the first tip occurs when the one blue robot is traversing the rockwall in the opposite direction about 31 seconds in. and tips the red robot after they clear.

[cbf]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

Yep there are 2 tips the first tip occurs when the one blue robot is traversing the rockwall in the opposite direction about 31 seconds in. and tips the red robot after they clear.

So I think our video has a better angle on the tipping of 125 at the Boston district event that you're referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ljx-Dsy-N4. Note that the video is over seven minutes long. It took quite a while for the judges to conference about this before they decided on the red card. (We keep the camera rolling on matches until the scores kept up. In this case, I wish my student cameraman had kept rolling so we could have heard the whole announcement about the red card.)

Personally, I think the first tip -- where Blue 4176 is just trying to cross back to the neutral zone and Red 2079 is just driving by, was completely inadvertent, and did not warrant a call. If anything Red 2079 was violating rule G43 by interfering with Blue 4176's crossing.

The second tip -- where Blue 2262 repeatedly hits Red 125 was different. Here Blue 2262 is quite intentionally playing a very aggressive defense -- which results in tipping 125.

But I have some problems with the award of the red card here. Part of it is that the very same Robot 2262 played similarly aggressive defense on us (2877) in the Quarter Finals and in fact damaged our robot in two straight matches. (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edRyGRw-6G0?t=1m40s where they bash into us 4 times, after which we could no longer drive) -- which caused us to lose the match (and the one before it, which had a similar result) and get eliminated.

But they didn't tip us, so we don't get the benefit of a card -- or even a foul. It would in fact, have been practically impossible to tip our robot, which is quite heavy and low to the ground.

This is something that's bothered me for a number of years. In 2014 for example, there were some top-heavy robots that tipped easily. I believe that year, tipping a robot was a 50 point "technical foul". There was one robot I remember that was seriously top-heavy that benefited from that foul at least three times in one competition -- because nearly any contact would result in it tipping over.

So my question is whether this rule is fair? A robot like 2262 presumably thought they were playing aggressive defense within the rules (or else that ref sure failed to give us a foul call he should have a couple of matches earlier). The same actions that are fine with one robot however, cause another to tip. If you look at the video -- 2262's driver had very little time to notice that 125 is starting to tip and react. So yes, you can argue that the third and fourth time they ram 125 was gratuitous and worthy of a foul -- but they only got it because 125's robot was somewhat tippy (I know 125 tipped at least once simply crossing a defense, and given the number of matches they played, I'll bet they tipped more than once.) Should it be the case that if you build a robot that tips easily, you get extra protection from being strongly defended?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Refs. Refs wear zebra stripes.

Us blue shirts don't know or really care much about events on the field.