Secret passage rule questions

[loonmoon]

1. I thought apposing teams weren't allowed into your own secret passage?
2. Can they pick up or touch your boulders then? if the boulders are still in the secret passage

[CalTran]

Yes they're allowed, yes they can pick up boulders.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by loonmoon

1. I thought apposing teams weren't allowed into your own secret passage?
2. Can they pick up or touch your boulders then? if the boulders are still in the secret passage

1) They are allowed. HOWEVER, they risk a tech foul if you contact them, AND they cannot enter from the Neutral Zone (or exit to the Neutral Zone).
2) Yep. Again note that if you contact them or they contact you, it's a tech foul on them.

[orangemoore]

I present G20

Originally Posted by G20

ROBOTS may only enter or exit their opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from/to the opponent’s
COURTYARD. A ROBOT is considered to be within the SECRET PASSAGE once the only carpet
the ROBOT is in contact with is the carpet inside the SECRET PASSAGE.

So yes to both questions.

[loonmoon]

Wait, if we touch them (on purpose) in our secret passage, they get a tech foul???

[Hitchhiker 42]

Originally Posted by loonmoon

Wait, if we touch them (on purpose) in our secret passage, they get a tech foul???

That's where the rules get gray (grey, if you're British, or the other way around?)... I think there's a rule that says that if you try to intentionally give the other alliance fouls, they aren't fouls.

[rsisk]

Just be aware the referees will be looking at your intent and may issue a G11 against you if you only purpose is to cause the tech foul

G11 Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.
Violation: FOUL. If egregious or repeated, YELLOW CARD

[loonmoon]

if anyone knows for sure post asap with support

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by loonmoon

if anyone knows for sure post asap with support

In my opinion they would get a tech foul.

It would be very hard to prove the only intent was to get the tech foul. Most teams go into the secret passage to prevent the other alliance from getting the balls that are in the secret passage.

[Chak]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42

That's where the rules get gray (grey, if you're British, or the other way around?)... I think there's a rule that says that if you try to intentionally give the other alliance fouls, they aren't fouls.

The relevant rule is G11:

Originally Posted by G11

Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.

But the blue box below says

Originally Posted by G11 blue box

G11 does not apply for strategies consistent with standard gameplay, e.g. a TEAM obtaining a BOULDER from their SECRET PASSAGE, CROSSING an opponent DEFENSE, etc. G11 requires an intentional act with limited or no opportunity for the TEAM being acted on to avoid the penalty. Examples include:...

so for this specific instance, the team that risked going into their opponent's secret passage will probably get the tech foul even if the opposing robot rammed them on purpose, especially since the opposing robot can claim that they intended to go for the same boulder.

Then again, I'm not a ref; I don't know how each instance would be called. I would just play it safe and not go into the opponent secret passage when there's an opposing robot nearby to block you.

Edit: the blue box also says "G11 requires an intentional act with limited or no opportunity for the TEAM being acted on to avoid the penalty", so I believe that G11 will only be called if you were cornered in the secret passage with no way out or something.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chak

Then again, I'm not a ref; I don't know how each instance would be called.

Case by case basis. Kinda hard to judge intent without seeing the scenario in front of you.

[wazateer1]

The first team update changed the wording of G21 such that the tech foul is awarded to the robot in its opponent's secret passage regardless of who initiates contact

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by loonmoon

Wait, if we touch them (on purpose) in our secret passage, they get a tech foul???

Originally Posted by rsisk

Just be aware the referees will be looking at your intent and may issue a G11 against you if you only purpose is to cause the tech foul

Originally Posted by wazateer1

The first team update changed the wording of G21 such that the tech foul is awarded to the robot in its opponent's secret passage regardless of who initiates contact

If you're, for instance, pinning an opposing robot in the corner of the Secret Passage and repeatedly tagging them, then that's probably going to be a G11 call (and a very rapid yellow card escalation). But if they happen to be in there and you rocket towards them "on the way towards collecting a ball from your HP", tagging them only once, it's a tech foul on them.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by loonmoon

if anyone knows for sure post asap with support

IMO any touch in your secret passage with any part of their robot touching secret passage carpet is a TECH FOUL against them unless you forced them into your SP to foul them as a general rule of thumb.

Teams are warned that being in opponents SP is a very high likelihood of a TECH FOUL in the rules

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing
ROBOTS, regardless of who initiates the contact.
Violation: TECH FOUL

G21 Blue Box:
TEAMS should take note that they are putting themselves at great risk
for TECH FOULS if they choose to enter their opponent’s SECRET
PASSAGE

In general by now I cannot see the teams purposely going into Opponents secret passages unless to retrieve a boulder that is close by and "chance it" and even then with the right intake you can retrieve and not touch that SP carpet.

I saw one play where the courtyard ref called the TECH FOUL and the discussion after with head ref deemed it actually a G11 and it was waved of since both bots were in the area and the jostling forced the bot into SP so sometimes its a close call for anyone to make when there is close contact leading up to the flag.