Flipping Rule

[KJS]

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by KJS

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

The way I see it IMO..the first two incapacitated the bot and were foul worthy as the team causing the tip had a chance to not tip and the bots were tall enough to see the tip and back off

The Third one obviously the Courtyard ref called a FOUL on Blue and entered the foul, but after a few seconds the bot got righted. So perhaps the foul was discussed after the game betwen the refs and waived off?

That is the only difference I see between Example 1 and Example 2 in comparison to Example 3


Same refs only difference is last example the bot got up and could play within 9 seconds so perhaps they felt it did not really affect the game that much , where in other two it seemed the tipped bots never recovered.

In fact a RED CARD could have been issued on first or second tip against the entire alliance as per rules

-------------------

G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or
entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy,
RED CARD

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by KJS

Ok, I need some help explaining the flipping rules to my team. We were flipped over in Utah in the quarter finals while playing defense. There was no call and as hard as was being upside down I think it was a good call because I didn’t think it was intentional. Then we went Colorado. In the quarters we were being defended and flipped over a tall, tippy, narrow robot while they had us pinned on the defenses (I had the drivers view and it is a different perspective when seen from the side).
https://youtu.be/w34O_lqwKFk?t=1m21s
Again the tip was not intentional however we were yellow carded but won the match. After the match one of the team members went to the question box and was told by the head ref that this was a warning and that in the same situation he would not give another yellow card. In the next match the same robot got in a pushing match with another of our team mates and ended up running over them and tipping to the side.
https://youtu.be/HWX2U5jih0U?t=1m36s
Our team mates were yellow carded. We won the match but the two yellow cards equaled a red card and we were DQ’ed. It crushed the kids. A few matches later 1619 gets hit from the side by 3288 playing aggressive defence and they are knocked over.
https://youtu.be/lyw0_XmMduA?t=1m5s
No yellow card. What do you tell the team? Seems pretty inconsistent a tough for the team to know what is going to happen to them in the same set of circumstances.

Not gonna lie, the first tip looked the worst of all of them. I feel like Tbone tips are way more realistic to call cards on since the tipped robot really can't do anything about it. (aka tip 1 and tip 3) Tip 2 was clearly incidental.

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by Boltman

The way I see it IMO..the first two incapacitated the bot and were foul worthy as the team causing the tip had a chance to not tip and the bots were tall enough to see the tip and back off

The Third one obviously the Courtyard ref called a FOUL on Blue and entered the foul, but after a few seconds the bot got righted. So perhaps the foul was discussed after the game betwen the refs and waived off?

That is the only difference I see between Example 1 and Example 2 in comparison to Example 3


Same refs only difference is last example the bot got up and could play within 9 seconds so perhaps they felt it did not really affect the game that much , where in other two it seemed the tipped bots never recovered.

In fact a RED CARD could have been issued on first or second tip against the entire alliance as per rules

-------------------

G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or
entanglements are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy,
RED CARD

Spot on, the two times we got tipped resulted in two broken welds and one a piece of square one inch tubing broken in half. Should have been a red card for the first flip.

I feel like the call in the first match was strange because 3230, 2996, and 1977 got scale points AFTER they tipped us (for contact in the last 20 seconds) which won the match for them. If this is not a clear G11 violation I don't know what is.

Also, niether flips were due to a "pushing match" both were intense T-bones.

[kevin.li.rit]

What are you thoughts on this? The red alliance received a red card for this and there were no yellow cards prior to this match.

https://youtu.be/3bY5-YjrxgU?t=26s

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

What are you thoughts on this? The red alliance received a red card for this and there were no yellow cards prior to this match.

https://youtu.be/3bY5-YjrxgU?t=39s

IMO Since there are now TWO RED bots tipped and incapacitated, I agree with the RED card and the foul. G24

Again Blue could have backed off..their drivers were close to the action, seems they chose to tip.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

Spot on, the two times we got tipped resulted in two broken welds and one a piece of square one inch tubing broken in half. Should have been a red card for the first flip.

I feel like the call in the first match was strange because 3230, 2996, and 1977 got scale points AFTER they tipped us (for contact in the last 20 seconds) which won the match for them. If this is not a clear G11 violation I don't know what is.

Also, niether flips were due to a "pushing match" both were intense T-bones.

Incapacitated robots are still subject to all foul just as a working robot is. I doubt the strategy was to go for a tip and get a free scale fouls in last 20 (heck all three robots could have earned a free scale by touching the fallen bot and if all three did that then that was smart understanding of the rules ) Was it the "plan" or simply an opportunistic play? I don't see a G11 based on the description IMO

I think tip happened not planned and then they took smart advantage of the situation in the last 20 seconds.

In reality ...your bot should have not been anywhere near there in last 20 seconds to tip.

Teams have to realize... any robot on their side of the field including even more so a defense bot are HIGHLY subject to FOULS, TECH FOULS and CARDS as that is where the rules FAVOR the attacking alliance especially in last 20 seconds.

[The other Gabe]

Once the video comes up you'll be able to see it, but Finals 1 at the Auburn District event (PNW) saw a double red card issued to the 1 seeded alliance for the intentional flipping of 2 robots in a single match, giving them a yellow card for the remaining matches (which they won).

Which is interesting, because I always thought that a red card was an automatic out - 1 and you're done.

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by Boltman

IMO Since there are now TWO RED bots tipped and incapacitated, I agree with the RED card and the foul. G24

Again Blue could have backed off..their drivers were close to the action, seems they chose to tip.

Yep there are 2 tips the first tip occurs when the one blue robot is traversing the rockwall in the opposite direction about 31 seconds in. and tips the red robot after they clear.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Boltman

IMO Since there are now TWO RED bots tipped and incapacitated, I agree with the RED card and the foul. G24

Again Blue could have backed off..their drivers were close to the action, seems they chose to tip.

As would I (Side note: PLEASE get the alliance correct--you had me thinking that the red alliance somehow got two G11 yellow cards).

The first tip (before the link starts) you could argue either way. The second tip you could possibly argue that red is trying to drive up blue. However, two tips against one alliance in the same match is something that would be highly indicative of a strategy.


Gabe the Other, that's not quite how it works. A Red Card will give you (or your alliance) a result of NOTHING for the match. Should you already be on the wrong end of a 1-0 in the playoffs before the match, you are out. But if you're on the "right" end, it's now 1-1, but you need to be really really careful because you're now carrying a yellow card--any yellow card you get after that will automatically upgrade to a red card, and you could be out.

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Incapacitated robots are still subject to all foul just as a working robot is. I doubt the strategy was to go for a tip and get a free scale fouls in last 20 (heck all three robots could have earned a free scale by touching the fallen bot and if all three did that then that was smart understanding of the rules ) Was it the "plan" or simply an opportunistic play? I don't see a G11 based on the description IMO

I think tip happened not planned and then they took smart advantage of the situation in the last 20 seconds.

In reality ...your bot should have not been anywhere near there in last 20 seconds to tip.

Teams have to realize... any robot on their side of the field including even more so a defense bot are HIGHLY subject to FOULS, TECH FOULS and CARDS as that is where the rules FAVOR the attacking alliance especially in last 20 seconds.

Just to be clear the tip occurred with over a minute left in the match.


I think that if a robot is dead in their own courtyard you "force" the penalty on them by driving into them (in an action that is not a normal game function, such as an attempt to get onto the batter).
Just check out the blue box under G11

G11 does not apply for strategies consistent with standard gameplay, e.g. a TEAM obtaining a BOULDER from their SECRET PASSAGE,
CROSSING an opponent DEFENSE, etc. G11 requires an intentional
act with limited or no opportunity for the TEAM being acted on to avoid
the penalty. Examples include:
...
B. A Red ROBOT is parked in the NEUTRAL ZONE near the Blue
SECRET PASSAGE. A Blue ROBOT pushes the Red ROBOT into the
Blue SECRET PASSAGE, then drives away. There is no violation of
G21 by the Red ROBOT, as the Red ROBOT was forced by the Blue
ROBOT into the SECRET PASSAGE. The Blue ROBOT has violated
G11 by forcing the Red ROBOT into the SECRET PASSAGE for the
sole purpose of causing them to violate G21.

Can you explain the difference between G11 resulting from you pushing a robot into your secret passage and G11 resulting from flipping a robot and later taking advantage of the dead bot?

Also, flipping a robot better not be a "strategy consistent with standard gameplay".

I will reiterate:

G11 requires an intentional act with limited or no opportunity for the TEAM being acted on to avoid the penalty.

There was no possible way for us to avoid getting flipped and then run over by robots on the opposing alliance in the last 20 seconds.

[Thad House]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

Once the video comes up you'll be able to see it, but Finals 1 at the Auburn District event (PNW) saw a double red card issued to the 1 seeded alliance for the intentional flipping of 2 robots in a single match, giving them a yellow card for the remaining matches (which they won).

Which is interesting, because I always thought that a red card was an automatic out - 1 and you're done.

The stream did not show either of the tips however. Just the aftermath.

And a red card is only a DQ for the current match. Always has been. Then you carry a yellow card for the rest of the time.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

There was no possible way for us to avoid getting flipped and then run over by robots on the opposing alliance in the last 20 seconds.

Here's something to consider:

Were you, in any way, shape, or form, blocking access to the batter, as any "reasonably astute" observer should be able to tell? Note that I'm not asking about the initial tip. To put it another way: Would your opponent need to move/contact you to have a free shot at the batter?

If the answer is "Yes", then G11 is unlikely to apply, because the opposing robots are trying to accomplish a game objective by running for the batter, and your robot just happens to be in the way. And because the GDC has specifically stated that disabled/tipped/otherwise non-functional robots are NOT exempt from fouls (presumably to thwart a couple of possible strategies aimed at breaking rules to block massive points--I won't go into those here, but one may be fairly obvious from the location I'm currently considering), then it becomes a case where the refs have no choice.

Your BEST BET is to, if such a case happens, head for the question box and have this discussion with the head ref.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

Just to be clear the tip occurred with over a minute left in the match.


I think that if a robot is dead in their own courtyard you "force" the penalty on them by driving into them (in an action that is not a normal game function, such as an attempt to get onto the batter).
Just check out the blue box under G11



Can you explain the difference between G11 resulting from you pushing a robot into your secret passage and G11 resulting from flipping a robot and later taking advantage of the dead bot?

Also, flipping a robot better not be a "strategy consistent with standard gameplay".

I will reiterate:



There was no possible way for us to avoid getting flipped and then run over by robots on the opposing alliance in the last 20 seconds.

The way I see it IMO is you chose to put yourself at much higher risk of penalties (and tipping) by choosing to play defense knowing that (if you look at the rules) most game play fouls will be called because of actions your alliance does on your side of the field. Plus last 20 seconds that area is not a good place to be in.

The tipping I do not see as being pre-meditated unless you have shown prior you are very tip-able and always have played defense so any alliance might plan and think lets tip them and get free scales...I sort of doubt that was the case.

I think what happened is you played defense and got tipped in game play as defensive bot strategies usually are fairly aggressive...that is the the breaks. You had a choice of not playing defense too, and not risking as much direct contact.

The fact teams later fouled you after being tipped is just smart game play IMO and kudos for them knowing the rules. I don't think anyone would not want a team to be opportunistic within the rules.

Who is to determine best "path" to batter a straight line or a swerving one that touched a dead bot at less than 20 seconds?

As for secret passage it should be pretty evident that a bot got pushed in it, even so that can be a tough call too if its just defense jostling near SP.

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by EricH

Here's something to consider:

Were you, in any way, shape, or form, blocking access to the batter, as any "reasonably astute" observer should be able to tell? Note that I'm not asking about the initial tip. To put it another way: Would your opponent need to move/contact you to have a free shot at the batter?

If the answer is "Yes", then G11 is unlikely to apply, because the opposing robots are trying to accomplish a game objective by running for the batter, and your robot just happens to be in the way. And because the GDC has specifically stated that disabled/tipped/otherwise non-functional robots are NOT exempt from fouls (presumably to thwart a couple of possible strategies aimed at breaking rules to block massive points--I won't go into those here, but one may be fairly obvious from the location I'm currently considering), then it becomes a case where the refs have no choice.

Your BEST BET is to, if such a case happens, head for the question box and have this discussion with the head ref.

We didn't flip ourselves in front of the batter, they flipped us in front of the batter. So even if we were in front of the batter in the last 20 seconds it was because we were forced to be there. G11 would not apply if we lost comms directly in front of the batter. By the yellow card it was acknowledged that the flip was intentional (or could have been avoided) and therefore it was their fault that we were in front of the batter. Their fault, their penalty.