Flipping Rule

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

We didn't flip ourselves in front of the batter, they flipped us in front of the batter. So even if we were in front of the batter in the last 20 seconds it was because we were forced to be there. G11 would not apply if we lost comms directly in front of the batter. By the yellow card it was acknowledged that the flip was intentional (or could have been avoided) and therefore it was their fault that we were in front of the batter. Their fault, their penalty.

Agreed and they received that penalty as did you for being there in last 20 seconds blocking their way to batter motionless, perhaps making a scale or capture impossible.

Both penalties are separate actions...and the rules are the rules and each infraction is separate.

You had a choice not to play defense or to right yourself and get out of there to avoid the last 20 second penalties. Not sure where you are seeing a G11 unless you strongly feel it was pre-meditated. But in the end its what the ref crew feels that is important. As Erich stated the question box at end of the match is the final say and best place for an explanation.

I think this is a good example of thinking twice about defensive strategies and the potential risks. Defensive bots need to know the risks, and should not be designed to be prone to tipping in their own courtyards... same with reversible bumpers that flip colors due to contact with other bots while playing defense..... every team makes choices that greatly increase their risks of a bad outcomes. Sometimes its best to avoid the risks or at least mitigate them. Many defensive bots will be top-heavy that is their choice and their risk.

This is especially important with cheesecaked defense bots..it may change your center of gravity and make you more susceptible to tipping.

You asked what to tell your team..I think that is the lesson, "make your own outcomes and mitigate risk" plus "rules are rules" I think they will understand. I feel that's a better lesson than some theoretical "what if G11" call. G11's are pretty rare because you must determine "intent" that's a high bar to set for any ref or ref crew.

I don't think anyone could ever tip our bot and yes we played defense too when our shooter jammed...never tipped once in 24 or so matches and that's with tons of breaching too.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

We didn't flip ourselves in front of the batter, they flipped us in front of the batter. So even if we were in front of the batter in the last 20 seconds it was because we were forced to be there. G11 would not apply if we lost comms directly in front of the batter. By the yellow card it was acknowledged that the flip was intentional (or could have been avoided) and therefore it was their fault that we were in front of the batter. Their fault, their penalty.

It was also their fault that they didn't move you AHEAD of time. Right? So now YOU're eligible for a G11 by arguing that they need a G11 (after all, you're arguing for them to get a foul for strategies aimed at causing you to get a penalty, which is itself a strategy aimed at causing them to get a penalty). Just some food for thought.

Look, I've seen some robots simply avoid those situations as best they could. Others take advantage. Your one and only chance is to talk it over with the head ref, who will tell you that there is nothing they can do, the rules require that they get free scales (though if your robot was incapacitated, bringing THAT up would likely be of interest to the head ref). Your next best chance it to tell the GDC in an email to frcteams@firstinspires.org that their ruling that it didn't matter who initiated contact caused your team to be (short version) screwed over. You'll probably get a nice email back something to the effect that they're sorry, but they will not change the rule or the match outcome, but will consider how to avoid that next year.

[KJS]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

Spot on, the two times we got tipped resulted in two broken welds and one a piece of square one inch tubing broken in half. Should have been a red card for the first flip.

I feel like the call in the first match was strange because 3230, 2996, and 1977 got scale points AFTER they tipped us (for contact in the last 20 seconds) which won the match for them. If this is not a clear G11 violation I don't know what is.

Also, niether flips were due to a "pushing match" both were intense T-bones.

First of all the bashing you guys did to us earlier in the match resulted in broken welds on our climbing arm. Does that qualify you for a red card under G11 because you broke our robot so we could not complete part of the match? Also the second roll over was in no way a T-bone because your robot and 2996 were going head on and you ran over them when they backed up. Watch the video and tell me it was in any way a T-bone.

As far as the free scales are concerned, that same thing happened to us in quals in Denver, an alliance partner died in the court yard while playing defense and was repeatedly rammed after the 20 second buzzer resulting in 3 penalties AND a free scale for the robot that took advantage of the situation. So at least that call was somewhat consistent.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by Thad House

The stream did not show either of the tips however. Just the aftermath.

And a red card is only a DQ for the current match. Always has been. Then you carry a yellow card for the rest of the time.

drat, I was hoping to actually see it... people were standing in my way so I didn't get to :v

and thanks for the clarification - I did not know how that rule worked

[KJS]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

Just to be clear the tip occurred with over a minute left in the match.


I think that if a robot is dead in their own courtyard you "force" the penalty on them by driving into them (in an action that is not a normal game function, such as an attempt to get onto the batter).
Just check out the blue box under G11



Can you explain the difference between G11 resulting from you pushing a robot into your secret passage and G11 resulting from flipping a robot and later taking advantage of the dead bot?

Also, flipping a robot better not be a "strategy consistent with standard gameplay".

I will reiterate:



There was no possible way for us to avoid getting flipped and then run over by robots on the opposing alliance in the last 20 seconds.

Your bot was sitting in front of the defense when we crossed. Look at the video.
https://youtu.be/e7_Ajjj9_As
You fouled us in the defense. How is he supposed to cross if you just sit there? You could have easily avoided being run into by not blocking the defense. From his perspective he was trying to cross a defense and get to the low goal. You totally blocked the defense (of course that was not called either).

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by KJS

Your bot was sitting in front of the defense when we crossed. Look at the video.
https://youtu.be/e7_Ajjj9_As
You fouled us in the defense. How is he supposed to cross if you just sit there? You could have easily avoided being run into by not blocking the defense. From his perspective he was trying to cross a defense and get to the low goal. You totally blocked the defense (of course that was not called either).

Thanks for the video link in watching it IMO I agree the blue bot should have yielded position due to being in a very susceptible tipping position parked longways very close to OW exit path and did park themselves in a position inviting contact and obstructed an exit.

I think the flip was called correctly IMO as red finished the tip process.

In fact a G11 for "inviting a tip penalty" could have been called the opposite way IMO

Just lucky the other two red bots didn't tag Blue too for another 20 points in last 20 seconds.

The last bot actually seemed to push Blue into SP to make room to reach the batter on right side , not sure they even knew about the free scale in watching that. So no G11 at all IMO

Have those kids watch the video again with the rule book and they should be able to call it themselves.

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Any video of the call?

There will be video once the matches are uploaded. QF 1-1 of Waterloo.

Our students talked with the head ref. I'm proud that they held their own and were professional speaking with him (I asked the head ref how they were afterwards) but they were told it was too hard to tell from where the refs were standing.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by T3_1565

There will be video once the matches are uploaded. QF 1-1 of Waterloo.

Our students talked with the head ref. I'm proud that they held their own and were professional speaking with him (I asked the head ref how they were afterwards) but they were told it was too hard to tell from where the refs were standing.

That is great. Sometimes calls go your way sometimes they don't. I was watching students challenge 95% were GP and even saw a student that did not exhibit GP after a challenge come back and personally apologize to the head ref. I think students understand sometimes more than us mentors.

We were pretty upset in weeks 1 and 2 having to cross defenses too many times for lights to go out (Portcullis especially the way we did that) ...that is a big deal too with ranking points. I was happy to see changes were made to be more aware of crossings and haven't read many complaints since.

I think emails to first do get read and talked about, I'm not afraid to on behalf of our students to shoot then an email. Enough people do it changes get made. That is why I encourage all teams if they question a call to go to the question box by the head ref to be heard. If the call does not go your way and explanation did not satisfy your team then email first. Its also great to post about it as many refs and other support staff read these posts.

In the end I think pretty much everyone wants every team to succeed and any missed calls, incorrectly made calls or missed points are really no ones fault, it happens but thankfully its rare. I understood playing in week 1 it would be interesting..it was while they worked the kinks out. Was much better in week 2 and definitely better this week watching the events .

[NShep98]

Originally Posted by kevin.li.rit

What are you thoughts on this? The red alliance received a red card for this and there were no yellow cards prior to this match.

https://youtu.be/3bY5-YjrxgU?t=39s

Well I certainly have a few thoughts.

Actually, from where I was standing due to the drawbridge, I had no idea we had just been driven into. I thought I ran into one of the dividers too fast, and I couldn't see 125 get tipped either. Luckily our partners were able to see well enough to contest the situation.

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by NShep98

Well I certainly have a few thoughts.

Actually, from where I was standing due to the drawbridge, I had no idea we had just been driven into. I thought I ran into one of the dividers too fast, and I couldn't see 125 get tipped either. Luckily our partners were able to see well enough to contest the situation.

When I watched it live that is what I thought happened. I was watching the other end of the field at the time and only turned and looked after the fall. 4176 the Iron Tigers did not see your team (2079) either when they were crossing the rock wall.

For the 2nd tip on 125, the tip happened in a very quick sequence during the pushing match.

Our alliance was not intentionally trying to tip over anyone so we're really upset with the red card. We were also upset with the sequence of events that followed because of the contest with the officials from the red alliance after the match. Our alliance captain was not spoken to prior to the DQ for our version of what happened. When asked for an explanation they were told that we were DQ'd for intentionally tipping.

Originally Posted by EricH

The first tip (before the link starts) you could argue either way. The second tip you could possibly argue that red is trying to drive up blue. However, two tips against one alliance in the same match is something that would be highly indicative of a strategy.

Originally Posted by Boltman

IMO Since there are now TWO RED bots tipped and incapacitated, I agree with the RED card and the foul. G24

Again Blue could have backed off..their drivers were close to the action, seems they chose to tip.

Thanks for the input Eric and Boltman, both tips happened very quickly. I think we're hitting on some earlier discussion where when playing either offense or defense against robots with high COG they tip over and who's responsible and what merits a penalty etc.

2 tipped robots definitely look bad but that alone I don't think is necessarily indicative of strategy especially not one of harm or incapacitation.

[bennettj800]

I dont want to be simplistic, but I think we should just trust the referies and wait for them to make their rulings. you can challenge it if you think its not fair, but to do that you should look at the G- listed fouls in the manual. I myself have no actual information about it, other than that it is a foul if the team touched you when you crossed a defense of the outer works or while you were in your own secret passage. other than that, I would look into the rules about malicious gameplay (such as *cough* pinning) to see if it is listed there. Hope this helps somehow... although i dont know that it will... :/

[MBimrose16]

At the AZ North Regional we were rammed by another robot in the neutral zone while making a turn and tipped onto our side. The other robot then backed up and ran into us again and then turned to cross a defense.

No penalty was called which makes me think that flipping calls are mostly on intention. I doubt that the second hit was malicious and was probably just the other drive team trying to turn to the defense but missed their mark. I'm sure the refs caught this which is why there was no foul called. I trust the refs for the most part on making calls like this that deal with malicious intent, but if there is any doubt I would definetly dispute it.

[IronicDeadBird]

I'm surprised there isn't a wobble check or wobble rules in place during a competition. I mean technically you could design a brilliant robot and test it out find out it wobbles, and is prone to tipping and you could go "Well if we leave it like this teams will think twice about defending against us because we could be flipped." Which is a strategically viable train of thought, but it is sloppy engineering, and it is the sports equivalent of faking an injury from another player.
That being said what the rules would be or how it would be enforced is I dunno, FLIPPING IMPOSSIBLE TO THINK OF!
See what I did?
No shame...

[rocknthehawk]

Originally Posted by NShep98

Well I certainly have a few thoughts.

Actually, from where I was standing due to the drawbridge, I had no idea we had just been driven into. I thought I ran into one of the dividers too fast, and I couldn't see 125 get tipped either. Luckily our partners were able to see well enough to contest the situation.

Based on this video, that's exactly what happened.

32 seconds in, you're already tipping yourself. Reading G24 do you believe the blue alliance intentionally tipped you? (and then the shoving match of 125/2262 causing an intentional flip)

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by rocknthehawk

Based on this video, that's exactly what happened.

32 seconds in, you're already tipping yourself. Reading G24 do you believe the blue alliance intentionally tipped you? (and then the shoving match of 125/2262 causing an intentional flip)

It wasn't intentional on our part (2262). It all happened very fast, we wouldn't even want to attempt to wedge our robot under another robot. We have 2 RS-550 + 2 Planetary GB hanging right up against our frame perimeter in the front and our roborio in the rear.