Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?

[EmileH]

Originally Posted by Woolly

Is mayonnaise a pneumatic device?

For those who don't get the joke

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by EmileH

For those who don't get the joke

Is Spongebob a pneumatic device?

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by rsisk

Serious question....

The fan is not a pneumatic device
but the tube being filled with air is

right?

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

No. The pressure would be too low and if the fan is turned off the pressure is lost.

My router died, so I've been offline for about a day, which is probably for the best. To amplify a bit on my last post in the other thread, I said essentially that I shall assume that the manuals are written in American English except where the GDC defines otherwise. This is exactly what I meant; when a word means something different in the US than abroad, the folks on the GDC meant the US description (e.g. gas torch means a device which projects flame powered by gas, not a gas lamp). The GDC regularly re-defines terms through the glossary and inline definitions (examples: those things on the front and back of my car are not BUMPERS, and the BATTER is not someone who bats, nor a substance which is beaten, nor a really high slope area around a tower used to redirect dropped items horizontally, but the low-slope area around the TOWER on an FRC field).

Pneumatic (leaving out descriptions of people) generally means "containing or working by compressed air". The game manual expressly excludes (via R77L) pneumatic tires (which usually do not do work beyond acting as springs), vacuum-producing devices (which can be argued as non-pneumatic according to the general definition as they work on the difference between ambient and rarefied air), and closed-loop shocks (which act as springs) as pneumatic devices. It does not expressly exclude fans, radial flow pumps, axial flow pumps, gravity pumps, or impedance pumps. If any of these devices create compressed air that does work (and there is no minimum PSI limit defined by the GDC for compressed air), then by the normal definition of pneumatic in the English language, I consider them to be pneumatic devices -- until and unless the GDC rules otherwise.

For the record - I am not trying to tear down any team that is using fans as pneumatic devices, just giving a warning that until/unless you get a solid ruling from the GDC that what you are doing is somehow an exception to the pneumatics rules, you may find your creative solution shut down at your next event.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by who716

I'm all for it I don't see anything at all in the rules that would hint at it being illegal in anyway, and on top of it passed inspection once and will most likely pass inspection again if it goes to another event. A+ for the creativity aspect to it

Unfortunately despite their great showing at Auburn thanks in part to their scaling device in question, they did not qualify for the PNW DCMP and have thus ended their season

Originally Posted by CalTran

Passing inspection at one place doesn't necessarily mean it'll pass again. You'd be surprised at what slips through the cracks.

Yes you would be surprised what slips by just for example at inspections at the PNW DCMP this evening a more observant inspector noticed a RS540 motor on a robot that had passed inspection 3 times this season.

However in this case more than one inspector including the LRI at the Auburn event took a look at their wind sock and we all agreed that it was legal and it certainly would have passed had they moved on to DCMP.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Pneumatic (leaving out descriptions of people) generally means "containing or working by compressed air". The game manual expressly excludes (via R77L) pneumatic tires (which usually do not do work beyond acting as springs), vacuum-producing devices (which can be argued as non-pneumatic according to the general definition as they work on the difference between ambient and rarefied air), and closed-loop shocks (which act as springs) as pneumatic devices. It does not expressly exclude fans, radial flow pumps, axial flow pumps, gravity pumps, or impedance pumps. If any of these devices create compressed air that does work (and there is no minimum PSI limit defined by the GDC for compressed air), then by the normal definition of pneumatic in the English language, I consider them to be pneumatic devices -- until and unless the GDC rules otherwise.

You're not really addressing the points people are bringing up here - "compressed air that does work" isn't really being created here. Air isn't being compressed - it's flowing. This air is pushing outward as it is flowing through a somewhat constricted opening, but it is not really being compressed. If you are really saying "there is no minimum PSI limit" and that literally any change in air pressure constitutes a pneumatic device, then this would apply to any fan (including those integral to motors / speed controllers), spoked wheel (flywheel shooters move a LOT of air around), etc. Such an absolutist position is just ridiculous.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

You're not really addressing the points people are bringing up here - "compressed air that does work" isn't really being created here. Air isn't being compressed - it's flowing. This air is pushing outward as it is flowing through a somewhat constricted opening, but it is not really being compressed. If you are really saying "there is no minimum PSI limit" and that literally any change in air pressure constitutes a pneumatic device, then this would apply to any fan (including those integral to motors / speed controllers), spoked wheel (flywheel shooters move a LOT of air around), etc. Such an absolutist position is just ridiculous.

If the whole robot drives into a tube with a flap at the other end, it would, for a split second increase the air pressure in the tube.
So is the whole robot a pneumatic device?

[TheModMaster8]

Originally Posted by bkahl

Are 775's Pneumatic Devices?

Their fans move air!

Your robot moves air as it drives.

[IKE]

*Trigger warning, may include some satire/sarcasm
I don't really see any issue with the fan. Now the wind bag (what I like to call the device catching said air) may be a different story. Can someone ask the GDC if Wind Bags are legal? I don't have direct access via Q&A. Here is some sample wording:

On CD, I came across a lot of posts about Fans and Wind Bags. While fans seem perfectly legal, wouldn't the Wind Bags referenced on CD be illegal? With all the attention they are getting, I am afraid that those that follow CD might cause the Wind Bags to multiply. It could get bad enough that most teams at the championship might have a Wind Bag. If wind Bags are legal, then carry on...**


*Just so anyone that is not a regular know this is mostly sarcastic
**Added so that anyone reading this post realizes that this post is mostly satire.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by IKE

*Trigger warning, may include some satire/sarcasm
I don't really see any issue with the fan. Now the wind bag (what I like to call the device catching said air) may be a different story. Can someone ask the GDC if Wind Bags are legal? I don't have direct access via Q&A. Here is some sample wording:

On CD, I came across a lot of posts about Fans and Wind Bags. While fans seem perfectly legal, wouldn't the Wind Bags referenced on CD be illegal? With all the attention they are getting, I am afraid that those that follow CD might cause the Wind Bags to multiply. It could get bad enough that most teams at the championship might have a Wind Bag. If wind Bags are legal, then carry on...**

*Just so anyone that is not a regular know this is mostly sarcastic
**Added so that anyone reading this post realizes that this post is mostly satire.

As a windbag myself, I resemble that remark.

[E Dawg]

Who needs a bag of winds? Just use David Hasselhoff as your human player.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by IKE

*Trigger warning, may include some satire/sarcasm
I don't really see any issue with the fan. Now the wind bag (what I like to call the device catching said air) may be a different story. Can someone ask the GDC if Wind Bags are legal? I don't have direct access via Q&A. Here is some sample wording:

On CD, I came across a lot of posts about Fans and Wind Bags. While fans seem perfectly legal, wouldn't the Wind Bags referenced on CD be illegal? With all the attention they are getting, I am afraid that those that follow CD might cause the Wind Bags to multiply. It could get bad enough that most teams at the championship might have a Wind Bag. If wind Bags are legal, then carry on...**


*Just so anyone that is not a regular know this is mostly sarcastic
**Added so that anyone reading this post realizes that this post is mostly satire.

I only see an issue with mentor-built wind bags... but then I don't know of any other varieties.

[JohnFogarty]

Originally Posted by marshall

I only see an issue with mentor-built wind bags... but then I don't know of any other varieties.

Does it look like a windbag to a reasonably astute observer?

[Conor Ryan]

The air pressure in your typical latex balloon is [ambient air pressure]+0.005 atm. Convert that to PSI.


**pours gasoline**

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

The air pressure in your typical latex balloon is [ambient air pressure]+0.005 atm. Convert that to PSI.


**pours gasoline**

Well, gauge pressure in FRC is pressure above atmospheric, so you just need to convert .005 atm to PSI. That is, .073 PSI.

And the pressure in a balloon is significantly higher than a wind sock, since pressure stored in a balloon is actually stretching the latex of the balloon out, where a windsock is just stiffening / taking shape.

[FrankJ]

Everybody seems to be missing the real question. Is the windbag rated for 125PSI?