Silicon Valley Regional (2016)

[Richard Wallace]

1662 is sporting an enormous slice of ... luscious cheesecake? *

Anyway, 971's shot goes over top of the thing. Defense is hard to do.

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*or, did they bring that giant folding panel along just in case? Nah.

[Doug G]

What is up with the challenge in F1?

... oh nevermind, 2 scales were given to red alliance for blue interference and thus the capture along with it.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Doug G

... oh nevermind, 2 scales were given to red alliance for blue interference and thus the capture along with it.

No capture. Just one challenge converted to a scale. +10 on the originally reported Red score.

[Doug G]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

No capture. Just one challenge converted to a scale. +10 on the originally reported Red score.

oops, right you are!

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

No capture. Just one challenge converted to a scale. +10 on the originally reported Red score.

I believe 254 was originally (incorrectly) given a challenge instead of a scale by the referees. As far as I can tell, only one red robot was actually on the batter at the end of the match. Here's the video: https://youtu.be/cGe8wdbfl_E?t=25200

Something interesting I didn't notice (despite being right next to the field): 254 appears to have been intentionally preventing 3303 from leaving its courtyard after the 20-second warning. Could this be considered a violation of G11? Rule, and blue box:

G11 Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of
FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in
an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.
Violation: FOUL. If egregious or repeated, YELLOW CARD
G11 does not apply for strategies consistent with standard gameplay,
e.g. a TEAM obtaining a BOULDER from their SECRET PASSAGE,
CROSSING an opponent DEFENSE, etc. G11 requires an intentional
act with limited or no opportunity for the TEAM being acted on to avoid
the penalty. Examples include:
A. A Blue ROBOT, with twenty (20) seconds left in the MATCH, is
parked in front of the middle face of the Blue TOWER. A Red ROBOT,
attempting to SCALE that face, runs into the blocking Blue ROBOT.
This results in a violation of G28 by the Blue ROBOT. Because the
Red ROBOT was not solely making an attempt to cause that Blue
ROBOT to violate G28, but rather to complete a Game Action (a
SCALE), they are not in violation of G11.
B. A Red ROBOT is parked in the NEUTRAL ZONE near the Blue
SECRET PASSAGE. A Blue ROBOT pushes the Red ROBOT into the
Blue SECRET PASSAGE, then drives away. There is no violation of
G21 by the Red ROBOT, as the Red ROBOT was forced by the Blue
ROBOT into the SECRET PASSAGE. The Blue ROBOT has violated
G11 by forcing the Red ROBOT into the SECRET PASSAGE for the
sole purpose of causing them to violate G21.
C. A Red ROBOT is parked completely within the Blue SECRET
PASSAGE. A Blue ROBOT, attempting to reach the Blue BRATTICE,
makes contact with the Red ROBOT. The Red ROBOT receives a
G21 penalty. There are no violations of G11 because the Blue ROBOT
was trying to access their BRATTICE and not solely trying to cause
the Red ROBOT to violate G21.

Maybe? Maybe not? Any thoughts? Should this be in YMTC?

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I believe 254 was originally (incorrectly) given a challenge instead of a scale by the referees. As far as I can tell, only one red robot was actually on the batter at the end of the match. Here's the video: https://youtu.be/cGe8wdbfl_E?t=25200

Something interesting I didn't notice (despite being right next to the field): 254 appears to have been intentionally preventing 3303 from leaving its courtyard after the 20-second warning. Could this be considered a violation of G11? Rule, and blue box:



Maybe? Maybe not? Any thoughts? Should this be in YMTC?

20 pts for Challenge/Scale (5 for the one red bot on the batter, 15 for 254 due to contact with Blue in last 20 "Free Scale")

G11 does not apply here both were heading toward SP IMO

[Michael Corsetto]

What a weekend!

First, thank you to all the volunteers who put the event on. SVR has many long-term volunteers, it was nice to see so many familiar faces.

More than anything, 1678 loves SVR for the teams in attendance. Along with many seasoned veterans, we had the pleasure to work with a number of truly fantastic rookie teams at this event, including 5924 and 5940. I am expecting great things from these teams in the coming years.

Speaking of up-and-coming teams, I was once again very impressed with 649 at this event. The students and mentors have so much passion for the program, only good things are in store for this group!

We'd like to thank all of our alliance partners in both qualifications and eliminations. This year, more than most, the alliance needs to work as a unit in order to ensure a capture each match. We really appreciate the hard work and determination each of our alliance members showed in the qualification matches.

Special thanks to our good friends on 971, 368 and 3303 for putting up some epic finals matches at SVR. Epic does not do those matches justice.

Thank you to our partners 254 and 1662. We've learned so much from 254 and its been a privilege to play on the same side of the glass these last couple of years. 1662 was a steal at the end of the draft, and played fantastic, clean defense throughout the eliminations.

Lastly, another thanks to 971 and 254. These are the two best robots in the world right now, hands down. Thank you for inspiring us to continually iterate and improve.

Originally Posted by bduddy

I believe 254 was originally (incorrectly) given a challenge instead of a scale by the referees. As far as I can tell, only one red robot was actually on the batter at the end of the match. Here's the video: https://youtu.be/cGe8wdbfl_E?t=25200

A few clarifications here:

According to our alliance captains retelling of the referee's explanation, the original scoring gave 1662 a challenge and 1678 a scale. Both robots were on the batter. 254 was given neither challenge or scale points (and was clearly not on the batter at the end of the match).

After we challenged the decision, thinking 254 was contacted by 3303 in the last 20 seconds, the referees discussed. They determined that 1678 and 1662 were both interfered with by 3303 in the last 20 seconds and gave both robots scale points.

I still believe that 254 deserved the scale points, and I believe the video shows this to be the case.

I think both alliances handled the situation very well, as uncomfortable as it was. However, there was quite a bit of boo-ing from the audience after the scoring change. I think this has become one of the unfortunate cultures at SVR, and it isn't the first time that 254 has been boo-ed at this event.

-Mike

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

After we challenged the decision, thinking 254 was contacted by 3303 in the last 20 seconds, the referees discussed. They determined that 1678 and 1662 were both interfered with by 3303 in the last 20 seconds and gave both robots scale points.

<snip>... there was quite a bit of boo-ing from the audience after the scoring change. I think this has become one of the unfortunate cultures at SVR, and it isn't the first time that 254 has been boo-ed at this event.

5.5.3 and T19 do not provide challenge as a remedy for incorrect referee decisions. The audience was given the impression, reinforced by the Game Announcer's statement, that the score had been changed based on a challenge.

Many of us can point to situations, like this one, in which a clarification request (allowed by T19) has had the same effect as a challenge. The perception that some teams are allowed to challenge referee decisions may contribute to the "unfortunate cultures at SVR", and at other venues as well.

I agree with Mike that the video clearly shows 3303 contacting multiple red alliance robots during the endgame. I think the scoring change was reasonable, and that many referees would have called the match that way initially.

[hionwind]

I would like to echo everything that Mike said about the event and also add that I personally found the teams at this competition to be particularly gracious and professional when talking to them in the pits.

Mike has already said it but I want to emphasize how impressed we all are with teams 5924 and 5940. In the pits and on the field, both of you looked like seasoned veteran teams. Our scouts had you ranked 10th and 7th, respectively, based on your individual performances. That doesn't happen by accident, particularly at SVR. Congratulations to both of you for well deserved Rookie All Star awards at SAC and SVR and we look forward to seeing you both at champs.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

A few clarifications here:

According to our alliance captains retelling of the referee's explanation, the original scoring gave 1662 a challenge and 1678 a scale. Both robots were on the batter. 254 was given neither challenge or scale points (and was clearly not on the batter at the end of the match).

After we challenged the decision, thinking 254 was contacted by 3303 in the last 20 seconds, the referees discussed. They determined that 1678 and 1662 were both interfered with by 3303 in the last 20 seconds and gave both robots scale points.

I still believe that 254 deserved the scale points, and I believe the video shows this to be the case.
-Mike

Well, at least the correct alliance was given the win, even if the calls were way off.

From my view, 254 is the only robot which is actually contacted in the last 20 seconds of F-1 (F-2 at least 2 robots are hit). They should have been the only one given a free scale per G28, however that that scale also should have given the red alliance the Capture, as their scale would automatically be awarded to the open batter spot. With 1678 and 1662 both given challenges, the final score should have been 175-159 in favor of red.

I'm not sure why they thought 1662 got contacted as they were nowhere near 3303 in the last 20 seconds. It didn't look like 1678 was ever actually contacted, either, but that's hard to tell from video. It's a shame both matches had 3303 caught in the courtyard, I think the final scores don't really reflect just how close and intense the matches really were.

As an aside, congrats on keeping the streak alive Mike!

[Tyler_Kaplan]

I know it's already been said by two of our mentors already, but it was fantastic to see what the SVR teams had to offer this year. That holds especially true for rookie teams 5924, and 5940. Those are two teams to keep an eye on!
A huge shout out to our alliance partners 254, and 1662, I'm still surprised 1662 was around for our pick, what a great team to have on your alliance.
It was an honor to play against high caliber teams in the finals, 971, 368, and 3303 all had fantastic robots, and I look forward to seeing all of them at champs.
I'd like to second what Mike said about 649. They are great team, with amazing students. Can't wait to see everyone next year!

[frcguy]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

More than anything, 1678 loves SVR for the teams in attendance. Along with many seasoned veterans, we had the pleasure to work with a number of truly fantastic rookie teams at this event, including 5924 and 5940. I am expecting great things from these teams in the coming years.

Originally Posted by hionwind

Mike has already said it but I want to emphasize how impressed we all are with teams 5924 and 5940. In the pits and on the field, both of you looked like seasoned veteran teams. Our scouts had you ranked 10th and 7th, respectively, based on your individual performances. That doesn't happen by accident, particularly at SVR. Congratulations to both of you for well deserved Rookie All Star awards at SAC and SVR and we look forward to seeing you both at champs.

Originally Posted by Tyler_Kaplan

I know it's already been said by two of our mentors already, but it was fantastic to see what the SVR teams had to offer this year. That holds especially true for rookie teams 5924, and 5940. Those are two teams to keep an eye on!

Thanks everyone! It means so much coming from a team that is so highly regarded in the FRC community. It was an honor to meet your team and play with you guys in Q4. We look forward to seeing 1678 at champs as well!

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

I think both alliances handled the situation very well, as uncomfortable as it was. However, there was quite a bit of boo-ing from the audience after the scoring change. I think this has become one of the unfortunate cultures at SVR, and it isn't the first time that 254 has been boo-ed at this event.

-Mike

Unfortunately, I think this was exacerbated by a failure to explain the reason for the change in score. It is very important to give a full explanation for such a change, especially when it arises from a rules interpretation. Most of the audience is not familiar with the nuances of the rules and its appropriate to give them a good explanation. We were able to piece most of it together in the stands, but that may not have been true for others.

[Citrus Dad]

My best experiences from SVR: Talking with other teams about how their programs can get and are getting better. Sharing resources is key to the success of FRC. I was particularly thrilled to hear about the change at 841 with greater support from their school and new sponsorships. This might even open an avenue for a new key FIRST sponsor. Please come and visit at Champs if you're there.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Unfortunately, I think this was exacerbated by a failure to explain the reason for the change in score. It is very important to give a full explanation for such a change, especially when it arises from a rules interpretation. Most of the audience is not familiar with the nuances of the rules and its appropriate to give them a good explanation. We were able to piece most of it together in the stands, but that may not have been true for others.

I completely agree, which is why I told the game announcer that he really should give more of an explanation. I think it's telling that the reaction to the explanation was a lot less negative.

And I apologize for any confusion caused by me mis-remembering the situation in F1 and posting as such.