Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

You're right, I forgot that I'm not in MI where every event is full. However, the fact that 10k lakes ran 70 matches Friday almost proves my point of, we can do better than 8 matches a team.


Ok, let me put this very bluntly - 8 match events is terrible for team experience, it's a borderline offensive to see all these folks "oh we can't do any more" and that's acceptable. I'm tired of skirting around the issue - Jon, Doug, Alan, if you don't CARE that the teams are getting jack for their money fine. But at least advertise the fact that your events don't care about team experience. Or try to come up with some ideas on how to make it better for them that aren't "it's hard".

Well, thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said I didn't care - Here in MN we care a lot, and we do everything we can to maximize the team experience. At our volunteer training event last fall, I spent about 45 minutes talking to inspectors about what we need to do to maximize the team experience at events. So please, don't say or imply that I don't care.

We are limited in what we can do. We do everything in our power to run as many matches as we can. Our field volunteers have worked through meals more than once at events, which is certainly less than ideal. Running events longer than we already do is a non-starter - it would mean needing to pay for more meals for the volunteers, which requires more money. adding volunteers to run them in shifts runs into the same problem. We're already doing everything we can to raise the money needed for these events.

It's not a question of shying away from something that is "hard" - it's a question of what we are actually capable of doing. We're already tackling a hard problem putting these events on and everyone at the events is working flat out to make them happen. So please, check the insults at the door and come up with actual useful advice.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Well, thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said I didn't care - Here in MN we care a lot, and we do everything we can to maximize the team experience. At our volunteer training event last fall, I spent about 45 minutes talking to inspectors about what we need to do to maximize the team experience at events. So please, don't say or imply that I don't care.

We are limited in what we can do. We do everything in our power to run as many matches as we can. Our field volunteers have worked through meals more than once at events, which is certainly less than ideal. Running events longer than we already do is a non-starter - it would mean needing to pay for more meals for the volunteers, which requires more money. adding volunteers to run them in shifts runs into the same problem. We're already doing everything we can to raise the money needed for these events.

It's not a question of shying away from something that is "hard" - it's a question of what we are actually capable of doing. We're already tackling a hard problem putting these events on and everyone at the events is working flat out to make them happen. So please, check the insults at the door and come up with actual useful advice.

You haven't checked your insults, at me, at some of the very volunteers you need to help, or at literally anyone who disagrees with you. I'm just a little more honest and up front about it.

Here's my question for you, and it's a simple one - Do you think 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams?

[dradel]

Everyone needs to take a breath!!

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

You haven't checked your insults, at me, at some of the very volunteers you need to help, or at literally anyone who disagrees with you. I'm just a little more honest and up front about it.

Here's my question for you, and it's a simple one - Do you think 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams?

If you're going to pick a fight, don't do it with Jon Stratis. He is one of the most passionate and driven people I know. He's also one of the most graciously professional people I know. No more insults are necessary.

8 play regionals aren't ideal for anybody. Everybody on the RPC wants to give teams as much field time as possible. If you don't believe that, just talk to them face to face. They all want the best for teams, and they work their butts off to make that happen.

I don't believe 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams. My team had a great time at both 8 play regionals that we went to. I've spoken with hundreds, if not thousands of people at events, and I've heard very positive feedback. Stronghold is an amazing game, and getting to watch it live is a ton of fun. I'd rather have 8 matches of Stronghold than any number of matches of Recycle Rush (except maybe zero...). So no, 8 matches is not inherently a bad experience. It isn't perfect, it could be better, but it's not bad.

Things are only going to get better in Minnesota. We are recruiting new volunteers, and are in the process of starting new events. I brought down 30 people this year, I'll have more than 50 next year. A few years down the road many of these people will be in key volunteer roles, some already are. Again, things are only getting better in Minnesota.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

We are recruiting new volunteers

Care to share their ages?

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by bkahl

Care to share their ages?

I'm 20. My volunteers range from 18-23. Most aren't old enough to drink. About half are FIRST alumni and the other half decided to volunteer through Bison Robotics' outreach program.

We all had a blast at Minneapolis and Duluth. I have tentative commitments from all but a couple to be back again next year, schedule dependent obviously. The goal is to get everybody hooked on volunteering so that when they graduate from NDSU, they decide to keep doing it because it's so much fun. Now that's how you make progress towards forming districts. I want them as badly as anybody. I just want them to be feasible and sustsinable.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

If you're going to pick a fight, don't do it with Jon Stratis. He is one of the most passionate and driven people I know. He's also one of the most graciously professional people I know. No more insults are necessary.

8 play regionals aren't ideal for anybody. Everybody on the RPC wants to give teams as much field time as possible. If you don't believe that, just talk to them face to face. They all want the best for teams, and they work their butts off to make that happen.

I don't believe 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams. My team had a great time at both 8 play regionals that we went to. I've spoken with hundreds, if not thousands of people at events, and I've heard very positive feedback. Stronghold is an amazing game, and getting to watch it live is a ton of fun. I'd rather have 8 matches of Stronghold than any number of matches of Recycle Rush (except maybe zero...). So no, 8 matches is not inherently a bad experience. It isn't perfect, it could be better, but it's not bad.

Things are only going to get better in Minnesota. We are recruiting new volunteers, and are in the process of starting new events. I brought down 30 people this year, I'll have more than 50 next year. A few years down the road many of these people will be in key volunteer roles, some already are. Again, things are only getting better in Minnesota.

I can say that both venues this weekend had key volunteers pushing for 9 matches but the people who determine how many matches vetoed it. Also for some reason it was determined that both events had to have the same number of matches. North star was running ahead of schedule and had to routinely slow their pace, we easily could have had 9 maybe even 10 matches but since 10K didnt think they could with 3 more teams North Star got shafted.

These 2 events were just that 2 DIFFERENT events and should be run that way.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

I'm 20. My volunteers range from 18-23. Most aren't old enough to drink. About half are FIRST alumni and the other half decided to volunteer through Bison Robotics' outreach program.

We all had a blast at Minneapolis and Duluth. I have tentative commitments from all but a couple to be back again next year, schedule dependent obviously. The goal is to get everybody hooked on volunteering so that when they graduate from NDSU, they decide to keep doing it because it's so much fun. Now that's how you make progress towards forming districts. I want them as badly as anybody. I just want them to be feasible and sustsinable.

This is absolutely great, and definitely a big help to MN.

Do you think that ND would be lumped together in MN if MN were to switch to districts? I'm just wondering why the solution seems to be for 30-50 college students who are located 3.5 hours away from the venue to volunteer at a regional held in a university 3x the size of NDSU. Is there just a proportionally higher amount of FIRST alumni or students willing to volunteer at NDSU compared to the University of Minnesota?

According to the lookup page on firstinspires.org, ND as a state only has 3 FRC teams. Is Bison Robotics also involved in expanding the FRC program within the state of North Dakota?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Knufire

Do you think that ND would be lumped together in MN if MN were to switch to districts? I'm just wondering why the solution seems to be for 30-50 college students who are located 3.5 hours away from the venue to volunteer at a regional held in a university 3x the size of NDSU. Is there just a proportionally higher amount of FIRST alumni or students willing to volunteer at NDSU compared to the University of Minnesota?

The reason, simply put, is Ryan He is far and away the most passionate recent grad MN has had, and has done amazing things with Bison Robotics. He's the one who brought us all the volunteers.

[wlaroche]

There are two things that are never brought up in these conversations.

What about out state teams that will have to travel for both distinct events. Take say 30 students and 5-8 mentors (and don't forget about parents, they are not in these numbers), put 4 students into a room and 2 mentors into a room that leads to 11 to 12 rooms. Say you find a room rate of $80; that comes to around $1000 just for rooms. Now teams are gong to have to pay to drive maybe 5-8 hours to get to the events in maybe a school bus, multiple vehicles, coach bus (our coach bus for 5 days to champs was $4000 - $5000, you could find a cheaper price for transportation but it will not be free). Now on top of getting to the event you have to pay for meals (yes you would still be paying for food for one event (regional) but not two (districts)). Once you add all this up double it, this is what out state teams will have to pay just to get there. Now yes, you get more plays but you have to pay more (maybe $5000 with district vs $2500 for regional) with school bus to get those extra plays. What I am getting at is not everyone is going to have the opportunity to stay in there bed for two events.

The other thing I never hear about is you have 2 practice matches on Thursday, and if you get inspected early, you can be in the backup line and play more. So realistically they are not just getting 8 plays. Yes I understand 8 in qualification plays.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Knufire

This is absolutely great, and definitely a big help to MN.

Do you think that ND would be lumped together in MN if MN were to switch to districts? I'm just wondering why the solution seems to be for 30-50 college students who are located 3.5 hours away from the venue to volunteer at a regional held in a university 3x the size of NDSU. Is there just a proportionally higher amount of FIRST alumni or students willing to volunteer at NDSU compared to the University of Minnesota?

According to the lookup page on firstinspires.org, ND as a state only has 3 FRC teams. Is Bison Robotics also involved in expanding the FRC program within the state of North Dakota?

My goal when I decided to attend NDSU was to put North Dakota on FIRST's map. It hasn't really changed but there are interesting road blocks. So Bison Robotics has been volunteering in Minnesota because they host the closest events, and also because most NDSU students are from Minnesota (I love volunteering in MN for the record).

I don't believe there are a higher percentage of FIRST Alumni here than there are at most Universities. NDSU doesn't do anything special to target FIRST alumni outside of what Bison Robotics has started. I certainly think we do a good job of recruiting the FIRST alumni that do go here, as well as bringing new people into the FIRST community. FIRST volunteering is not difficult to recruit for in my opinion, get people to events, hang out and have fun at the end of the day, wake up early and repeat. Pretty easy sales pitch.

If I had to guess, I would say a Minnesota-only district system would devastate the surrounding areas. Iowa with 11 teams, North Dakota with 3 (including 1 that is no more than 15 minutes from the MN border), etc. I just don't see those states thriving if they are put on an island. If we include them in our district, we have to decide who we eventually cut off. We take Iowa and North Dakota, but should we take Wisconsin? South Dakota? I don't believe there is an easy solution.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I can say that both venues this weekend had key volunteers pushing for 9 matches but the people who determine how many matches vetoed it. Also for some reason it was determined that both events had to have the same number of matches. North star was running ahead of schedule and had to routinely slow their pace, we easily could have had 9 maybe even 10 matches but since 10K didnt think they could with 3 more teams North Star got shafted.

These 2 events were just that 2 DIFFERENT events and should be run that way.

I'll take some credit here, and hopefully clarify the decision to play 8 matches. I was on 10,000 Lakes with 63 teams.

I'm apparently one of the people who "vetoed" 9 matches, though I don't recall doing it in a way I would consider "vetoing." I would also like to add that at no point did a key volunteer approach me and say "Bryan, we should really get 9 matches in," so I'm not sure where that information came from.

On Wednesday as we were generating the schedule here is what we put into the FMS:

• The public agenda for the event (which had the same amount of time allocated to qualification matches as most FRC regionals)
• A 7 minute cycle time (as presribed by FIRST, and corroborrated throughout the previous 5 weeks of competition)
• A 45 minute lunch on Friday
• 3 minute breaks for audience defense selection as generated by the FMS

The first time we did this, we put in 8 matches per team and our schedule ended up about a half an hour short on Saturday and a hair early on Friday.

At this point, the event manager joined the FTA and the scorekeeper and asked if 9 matches was possible. We changed the matches per team to 9, and the FMS informed us that doing so would put us 45 minutes late on Saturday and just a hair late on Friday. That is how we made the decision to go with 9 matches.

Here's the deal with the public agenda: One of the biggest responsibilities of FTAs and event managers is to keep the event running as close to the schedule as possible. Failing to do so has serious implications for teams. Some teams have buses that cannot wait or charge for waiting, some teams have multiple hour drives to get home, and the list goes on. Playing through lunch is not only terrible for the volunteers, but it is terrible for teams as well because suddenly they need to chose between lunch or playing matches as well. Playing through lunch is an absolute last resort- for situations like it sounds like UMass Dartmouth was in.

Additionally, ending 45 minutes late puts us at significant risk for an even greater setback. Replays, guest speakers like Dean Kamen, or broken defenses could easily make that 45 minutes and hour and half or longer. By sticking closer to the schedule we are able to be more confident that we can provide a good team experience.

And that's the real message here: Team experience at an event is about so much more than whether you played 8 or 9 official qualification matches. What you do at an event, the people you meet, and the teams you help. I would argue that if the only value your team gets out of an event comes from the number of matches you play, then you aren't getting the right things out of your events. Yes, I agree, more matches are always better. If I could give teams 12 plays at every regional event in Minnesota, I would. But I can't.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

The reason, simply put, is Ryan He is far and away the most passionate recent grad MN has had, and has done amazing things with Bison Robotics. He's the one who brought us all the volunteers.

Great leaders definitely inspire the people around them, and it sounds like Ryan is a great example of this. I applaud Bison Robotics for what they do, traveling that far to volunteer is definitely a sign of true dedication to the program. I hope that other universities in the area follow this example as well; everyone is in agreement that more events are needed in Minnesota (regionals or districts), and more volunteers are needed to go along with those events.

Originally Posted by wlaroche

There are two things that are never brought up in these conversations.

What about out state teams that will have to travel for both distinct events. ...

The other thing I never hear about is you have 2 practice matches on Thursday, and if you get inspected early, you can be in the backup line and play more. So realistically they are not just getting 8 plays. Yes I understand 8 in qualification plays.

Yes, there are a small group of teams that districts do make life harder for. 5188, for example, is located about 10 minutes from the Illinois border. Prior to districts, 5188 just competed at a local regional held in Terre Haute (Crossroads), and competed at the World Championship. When districts came in, Crossroads disappeared and all of the district events were held closer to the population center of teams (Indianapolis or Lafayette). All of 5188s events are at least an hour away from Terre Haute.

I know similar issues affected teams in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan, hopefully some of those active on CD (857?) can comment on their experiences before district events were added in the UP.

I have heard that one goal when attempting to plan out where district events are located is to ensure that no team is outside driving distance for both their district events. The difficulty of this is highly dependent on the geographic size of the district, which is a consideration when initially forming the district area. If the area is too large, you do lose some of forcing more rural teams to travel several times.

On the topic of practice matches, district events also have pits open for a few hours on load in day where teams can get inspected and get in the filler line for practice matches as well (given the field is ready).

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Tanis

Yes, I agree, more matches are always better. If I could give teams 12 plays at every regional event in Minnesota, I would. But I can't.

Cool, so we've reached a consensus - More matches = more better for teams.

We've even agreed that we want what's best for teams. Yay! Progress.


So, you're telling me the primary issue is in the combination match turn time combined with teams. [1] What steps can we take to alleviate this?

- FiM runs two fields side by side, and I know some Canadian events have. Would that be a viable solution?
- Would leaning on FIRST HQ and the GDC to lower match turn times (i.e. field reset) help? What is the lowest we can get this number? What lessons can we learn from games with low turn times?
- I noticed you said that guest speakers were a problem, I understand the need for VIPs and what have you to talk. But would stuffing them into field breaks be a viable option?
- Field breakage, ok this is TERRIBLE this year. Goes hand in hand with match turn times I'd assume. What lessons can we take from the past games here? [2]
- Are FMS connection times an issue? I know it's something we had issues with in NE
- I'm gonna harp on this one a bit, cut down the number of teams? Option? [3]




[1] Yes I knew this already

[2] My role primarily involves not being around the field much.

[3] This is really why I push districts - it lets teams play more, for less money and lets more teams take home hardware. Hardware is REALLY inspiring which achieves FIRST's Mission. Just this weekend we played with a team that had, in 20 years, NEVER made it to the finals of an event. Their kids were inspired. A chance they wouldn't have had in a regional system where a second play was 4k.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Tanis

guest speakers like Dean Kamen...

Can confirm that Dean slowed down the event. He was trying to leave for well over a half hour, but of course he couldn't pass up a single autograph. He was absolutely mobbed in the pit area with well over 50 people surrounding him. I served as a "bodyguard" and did my best to hold back what felt like hundreds of crazed children in the most GP way I could manage. It was an interesting time.