Possibility for Minnesota: Adding Offseason Events

[blueyoshi256]

Hello. I am currently a senior on MN team 2823, from St. Paul Highland Park. During my time on the team, I have been able to meet teams from all over MN, and also have really gotten to know most of the St. Paul teams through working to organize the St. Paul hub.

With all of the talk around districts, I thought I would suggest an alternative that might be easier, and help pave the way for future improvements: Rent a dedicated, year-round space and field, then use it to run 15-team offseason events.

Obviously, this would be highly unprecedented in FIRST, but I think that it could be a very effective transitional solution. Here's why:

1) Cost. I estimate that a 4,000 square foot space in the cities could be rented for 3,000-4,000$ per month, and still be within 25 miles of 80+ teams. That's $58,000 (with field cost) maximum split several ways, something that would leave a reasonable $600 per team per year. Some big teams may have to cover small teams, but it could be done.
2) Space is sufficient for 15 teams. We were very lucky to be able to drive up to Chaska to practice with the Stormbots during our spring break this year. That space had almost an entire field, and could have held 6 teams working just in that same room. By my calculation, the field would be ~1500 sq. ft, and 15 10x10 pits would be another 1500, leaving an extra 1,000 sq. ft for the rest of the team. And that is assuming no compacting. At Chaska, there was a fairly communal set of tools, allowing us to bring no more than our batteries, our robot, and unique spare parts. Far less than a 10x10 pit. A 4,000 sq. ft. space could likely fit 15 teams and a field.
3) A tiny offseason event is far easier to host. My proposed schedule for a 15-team event would be as follows: split into 5 alliances, then play a round robin. That makes 10 matches, 4 for each alliance, giving 8 minutes of play. However, the big advantage comes from the schedule. 10 matches could likely be played in 2-3 hours, assuming a very slow field reset due to robot repair. Add in one hour to get all of the robots running (easier with 15 bots, and for an offseason), and a 4-hour event is very possible. This would allow events to be played on weeknights.
4) Volunteers become easier with less formality. With 15 teams, it is easier to cope with fewer volunteers. 4536 (via the St. Paul hub) has hosted a week 0 for about 9-10 teams for the past three years. Our official volunteer base consists of: Dan from 4536, plus a few other team leads to plan; A large group of students and mentors the night before to set up the field (requires no training, and isn't needed for every event with a permanent space); Caleb from 4536 to act as inspector (with a visit by a real inspector to help out; and John from 4536 to act as the announcer/scheduler. If we needed a few more volunteers (such as refs), we could always draft them from the various adults around. A few bad calls would stink, but with no official major awards, the sting would be lessened.
5) It could remove the issue of the "usual suspects" that currently prevents large offseasons from effectively supplementing regionals. I believe that there were four offseasons last year in Minnesota. At least one was in Duluth, but many of the rest were in the Twin Cities Metro. However, many teams go to multiple events, meaning that far fewer total teams participate. Of the dozen or so teams in the St. Paul hub, by my count only about half attended an offseason last year. This was probably due to cost and lack of information. Most of these teams are also not very connected to the wider community, making them unlikely to get training, space, and information outside of the hub (and we do try our best to ensure that stuff gets passed on). A small event is the perfect way to bring teams together, and provides a more centralized way to keep them informed of all the incredible possibilities, both mechanical and organizational, that FIRST offers. Also, it is a great place to train volunteers!
6) It would drastically increase match time. This one is obvious, but the math is really compelling. Using the FIRST website, there are 89 teams within 25 miles of my zipcode, or 1 hour (ish) total transport time. Add in 2-3 hours of matches, and 1 hour of prep, and a 5-hour event is possible, and could have students home by 8:00-9:00 ish on a weeknight. Not bad. That means 5 events per week is possible, and 5/6 of teams in range would play 8 extra minutes of matches each week, for on average ~5.6 minutes extra every week. This may not be regional match time, but it would still go a long way.
7) And don't forget the weekends!. The biggest downside to this "solution" is that it is only focused on the metro area. This is not ideal, but the weekends can be used to mitigate it. Teams that are further away, say 50 miles (that's 154 teams by the FIRST website) could play on the weekends, with extra time compensating for transport. If possible, these events could have more teams, as 15 is not likely to be super compelling with a long transit time (Note that the Regionals provide all the polish and grandeur here, but that's fine by me. I just want more match time).
8) Or the rest of the year. Talking with the teams from St. Paul, I think better access to build and field spaces would be a total game changer. Most are tied completely to the schools. If there is a break, or if it happens to be Sunday, or if the clock strikes 8:00, they can't do anything at all. This space could easily be turned into a workshop for teams during the build season. It also provides these teams with access to large carpeted areas and real field elements, something that has proved crucial for our autonomous and driver ability (and we only have cobbled together carpeted spaces). Even limited access is far better than the current access only at week 0.
The summers could also be used, as it would just take manpower and preparation to run a summer camp out of the building.
9) This solution scales down easily. Maybe it is too difficult to raise 58,000 dollars and get a hundred teams involved. I'm likely being overly optimistic in the organization required (although my numbers for the space and time are fairly pessimistic to me). However, just renting a space and borrowing/buying a field for 1 month would reduce the cost to $13,000 total, while still allowing significantly increased play time. That number probably wouldn't require a huge number of teams to reach (And I want the St. Paul hub to reach it anyways). From there, more money gives more time.


This is not a formal proposal. Just a possibility. It has some strong disadvantages.
1) It does not cover teams that are far away
2) It is extremely difficult to organize. Not impossible if we start quickly. Just hard.
3) It lacks the "Wow!" factor of a regional.
And probably more.

However, I think it is a clearer path for teams than districts seems to be (this might change). I don't think it is a final solution, but it is a temporary solution that could be implemented in a short amount of time.
It also (hopefully) could be a starting point for discussions beyond the current cycle of "We want districts"->"We still need work before districts"->"Why aren't we working on them"->"We are working on them. They are hard (and are they really worth it?)"

Let me know what potential unorthodox solutions you have!

[Jon Stratis]

Minnesota does have its own forward deployed field for use in off season events - it's what is used at all of the current summer/fall off season events in the state, and is available should other teams want to start up new off season events! We also do training at all of the off season events for anyone interested, with a specific focus on training at MRI.

You say it would be difficult to organize... Who would be doing the organizing?

A better solution would be for all of the teams and individuals clamoring for districts to set up their own off season events. Let's get a dozen fall events spread across the state, all set up and organized by different groups. THAT is what districts is like behind the scenes, and is the kind of spread out volunteer base that is needed to make them successful.

[blueyoshi256]

Jon, getting everybody to host their own events is the same sort of idea I'm suggesting. For us, the hardest part is finding a space. 4536 almost couldn't host the week 0 because the Basketball team did well, and Central wanted to host that game. Before that, I believe Washington was trying to host. We do have a gym as a school, and finally some carpet as a hub. But hosting an event requires two things that are hard for us: Custodial overtime and field setup. It doesn't make sense to borrow a field for 5 hours and 15 teams, and while we are trying to find spaces that would always be open and would have cheaper cleaning, it's really difficult.

That's why I'm suggesting that a whole bunch of teams could split the cost of the space and field. By keeping a field set up pretty much permanently, and having a 24/7 space, a 5-hour 15 team event becomes possible.
As for who would do the organizing, I don't know. I could help this summer most likely, but I'm going off to college next fall. I know several teams that would be happy to pitch in, 2491 and 2855 to name a few. I also think that a 15-team event changes the organizing problem by making it far easier to organize. It would be very difficult for the dozen teams in the St. Paul hub to set up a single 30 team event, and possibly not worth it for a 15 team event that includes field setup.

In short, we would love to run a small event, but we don't have the space or the field. I'm sure that we aren't alone. By banding together, we make the space and field much easier to obtain, and the more teams involved, the more impact a space could have.

[Alan Anderson]

Don't forget that teams will need room to move the robots between pits and field. 14 pits at 10x10 needs at least 2000 square feet, and that's if you don't mind a crowded aisle between them. Every additional pit needs between 140 and 200 square feet depending on how they are arranged and how narrow a robot path you can manage to make work. The best case is with two rows of pits facing each other across a single shared aisle.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Don't forget that teams will need room to move the robots between pits and field. 14 pits at 10x10 needs at least 2000 square feet, and that's if you don't mind a crowded aisle between them. Every additional pit needs between 140 and 200 square feet depending on how they are arranged and how narrow a robot path you can manage to make work. The best case is with two rows of pits facing each other across a single shared aisle.

It's time for everyone to break out those free copies of SketchUp, and find out if various candidate venues actually can be venues.

[blueyoshi256]

Space would definitely be tight. However, the math still works out, even with 10x10. And 8x8 would require significantly less space. Even if that were to fail, with a smaller event, it may be possible to discard pits altogether for space to work and communal tools.

[Shrub]

Originally Posted by blueyoshi256

Space would definitely be tight. However, the math still works out, even with 10x10. And 8x8 would require significantly less space. Even if that were to fail, with a smaller event, it may be possible to discard pits altogether for space to work and communal tools.

I've never seen communal space/work happen apart from practice field areas with 4-5 teams. That would be interesting.

[blueyoshi256]

Yes it would be. It is more possible with 15 teams than with 30. I imagine the reality would be something like when teams move their pits to be closer to the field during elims. And obviously, a bigger space would be used if possible. 4,000 might be close to a minimum for this.

[Mark McLeod]

Don't forget to rough-in the overhead costs, such as:
- 501c3 organization to account for liability (and to handle the contracts and large amounts of money involved)
- Blanket insurance policy to protect both the facility and the participants from damage
- Facility security, custodial, and possibly maintenance
- Facility utilities such as electric/heat

With a school those types of things might be taken for granted.
For instance, maybe locate an unused/mothballed elementary school that can be used.

[blueyoshi256]

I did forget the insurance. That might up the cost significantly. The cost estimate was found by googling "twin cities industrial space", and looking at the first page. It showed a $3,200 4,000 sq. ft. space that included utilities. Granted, that might be too good to be true, but some networking might be able to keep the cost down.

[Knufire]

Some resources that might help:

http://mez.engin.umich.edu/
http://team624.org/?controller=page&action=steamCenter
http://www.peddie.org/Page/Academics...eddie-Robotics

[Meredith Novak]

Originally Posted by blueyoshi256

I did forget the insurance. That might up the cost significantly.

Until 2011, FRC 16 met in private space and had to buy liability insurance through our 501(c)(3). It was surprisingly cheap. IIRC about $400 per year for $3,000,000.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

A better solution would be for all of the teams and individuals clamoring for districts to set up their own off season events. Let's get a dozen fall events spread across the state, all set up and organized by different groups. THAT is what districts is like behind the scenes, and is the kind of spread out volunteer base that is needed to make them successful.

Here's a thought for you all:

One rookie regional out here did NOT run quite like a rookie regional. Was it because:
a) They picked up a lot of crew from a regional that no longer existed, or
b) They'd had an offseason trial run to make sure everything worked with event quantities of teams?




The correct answer is, b. They'd hosted an offseason for two years, and the second year is when they did the full dry run. The two biggest problems were cramped space (and they got creative...and it worked) and a nice toasty main gym.

You want districts, host an offseason. Showing that you CAN host an event is half of the battle. (Matter of fact, it's a great training ground for volunteers...)

[MrRoboSteve]

Other attributes of space that you'll want to consider:

ceiling height
clear span
power

It's possible the space will require bathroom expansion, because bathroom requirements derive from the maximum number of people on site at one time, and warehouses typically are low on that measure.

Parking will be a significant issue at warehouses if you want to run events, because most warehouse space has a low number of parking spaces per square foot of space.

You'll also need to determine whether it's a permitted use in the zoning district that it's located in, and apply for and receive a conditional use permit if it's not.

[gblake]

County fairgrounds often have large open warehouse-y sorts of spaces that have pro's and cons.

One pro might be fewer of the bureaucratic and logistical headaches that accompany using a true warehouse.

And rural areas sometimes have nice(ish) fairgrounds.