2016 Minnesota State Champs

[Chief Hedgehog]

The list seems incomplete without 2175 and 3130.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

The list seems incomplete without 2175 and 3130.

How soon until someone from outside Minnesota chimes in that if Minnesota had districts they would have made it? (I'm kidding. Let's please not make another thread about Minnesota going to districts).

[Thardro]

While it is great that we will be attending this for the first time, it is a shame that our alliance partners 2175 and 3130 from North Star will not be there as they both built some of the best robots in the state this year and clearly deserve to be there.

[youngace89]

Bogus and way too early predictions anyone? (Assuming all invited teams attend)
1. 5172-2052-2220
2. 5434-2502-4539
3. 2512-2883-4778
4. 4009-3102-2823

[Boe]

I feel like I may have jinxed my team when i posted this during build season...

Originally Posted by Boe

I would much rather go to my first event sit dead on the field during every match and not go to states, if it meant having all issues worked out for our next event and doing well and going to worlds.

Good luck to all the teams going, it always ends up being a good event despite some of the best teams in the state not attending each year.

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Boe

Good luck to all the teams going, it always ends up being a good event despite some of the best teams in the state not attending each year.

This really needs to be fixed, 2175 and 3130 both deserve to go. This happens every year, and it's time to fix it. We can't call it a state championship if it doesn't have the best teams in the state.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

This really needs to be fixed, 2175 and 3130 both deserve to go. This happens every year, and it's time to fix it. We can't call it a state championship if it doesn't have the best teams in the state.

How do you propose fixing it?

The teams invited are invited using the same formula that districts use to select who's invited to district championships. The formula applies to the first event only. Giving teams the best of multiple events is prima facie unfair to teams that can only afford one event.

As it is, winning Chairman's at any event is an automatic in.

I'd love to see 2175 and 3130 at the state championships but that's not the way the rules are written.

You want heartbreaking, 2169 is the first team not selected and they lost on the 4th tiebreaker.

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by DareDad

How do you propose fixing it?

The teams invited are invited using the same formula that districts use to select who's invited to district championships. The formula applies to the first event only. Giving teams the best of multiple events is prima facie unfair to teams that can only afford one event.

As it is, winning Chairman's at any event is an automatic in.

I'd love to see 2175 and 3130 at the state championships but that's not the way the rules are written.

You want heartbreaking, 2169 is the first team not selected and they lost on the 4th tiebreaker.

Take the average of both events. The goal of the state championship should be to find the best teams in the state... IRI doesn't only take into consideration your first event because the goal is to find the best teams. You can't call it a state championship if the goal isn't to find the best teams in the state.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by DareDad

How do you propose fixing it?

Take an average of the first 2 events a team attends. Not every team goes to 2 events, but those that do should be rewarded for their hard work. In order to go to two events, you need money. To get this you work hard to raise funds. Every team in the state can work hard. Can every team raise enough money for 2 events? No, but a large majority can. The teams that go to 2 events generally have more time put into the program on average. Obviously there are exceptions with 4778 being one of them. I think this dedication to FIRST should be rewarded as well.

I would also say teams should be rewarded for the time they spend iterating and improving their robots between events. Diagnosing problems, fixing them and having a better performance and the field as a result is an amazing thing. These teams put in a lot of time and work and money into this improvement, not to mention blood, sweat, and tears.

If you're worried about not all teams being able to do 2 events, then take the teams single event and double the score while taking others teams' 2 events. Or simply take an average of 2 events that teams do, same thing.

This system rewards hard work without eliminating teams that can only do 1 regional from being able to compete. The top robots need to be there if we're going to call it a championship event, and this will correct for that without over-correcting.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by DareDad

The teams invited are invited using the same formula that districts use to select who's invited to district championships. The formula applies to the first event only.

This is false. Among other things, the district formula does not have the potential to award 10 points to teams who spend 15 minutes writing an essay they don't care about.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

This is false. Among other things, the district formula does not have the potential to award 10 points to teams who spend 15 minutes writing an essay they don't care about.

I agree, if you spend 15 minutes on your Chairman's essay/presentation/video no one will care about it. Or at least no one will care for it.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by DareDad

I agree, if you spend 15 minutes on your Chairman's essay/presentation/video no one will care about it. Or at least no one will care for it.

But you'll still get your 10 state qualification points and you'll still take up judges time and energy

[Ginger Power]

Sorry for all the posts, I'm very opinionated on this topic... actually I'm very opinionated in general

Using only 1 event for state qualification rankings also provides incentive for teams to avoid early events. It is unfair to those teams located in the Duluth area that can't afford to travel. They only get 1 week after build season ends to make improvements (with no reference) while teams in the Twin Cities area that can't afford to travel, get over 6 weeks and the opportunity to see 254 and 1114 play, as well as many of their competitors who go to Duluth.

It's not fair no matter how you do it. I just think we should reward hard work rather than worry about being fair in a single aspect.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Using only 1 event for state qualification rankings also provides incentive for teams to avoid early events. It is unfair to those teams located in the Duluth area that can't afford to travel. They only get 1 week after build season ends to make improvements (with no reference) while teams in the Twin Cities area that can't afford to travel, get over 6 weeks and the opportunity to see 254 and 1114 play, as well as many of their competitors who go to Duluth.

Or do the Duluth teams have an advantage because they're not playing against anyone who has already played? Not clear cut either way. Making it "fair" is not straightforward.

We appreciate the sentiment and regret missing the event. It's always fun to compete up close and personal with MN friends again.

The qualification rules have been the same since the event was established in 2012. The 30 teams that performed best at their first events, according to district points, compete at state champs. We all know this, and try our best to make the cut. (Indeed, district teams still only count two events for points, any additional plays don't help ranking.) Both 2175 and 3130 have been lucky to attend in the past, and wish the best of luck to the very worthy competitors this year.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Aren Siekmeier

Or do the Duluth teams have an advantage because they're not playing against anyone who has already played? Not clear cut either way. Making it "fair" is not straightforward.

This is an interesting view, and one that actually seems to be born out by the numbers from this year's rankings. Ignoring the 4 Chairman's teams, 22 of the teams that earned a spot at states competed in Duluth. 1 from Wisconsin, and only 3 from Minneapolis. Now, many of those also competed a second time (most in some combination of Minneapolis, Iowa, and Duluth) - in fact, 16 of the teams attending states attended multiple regionals this year.

Honestly, it's a crap shoot when picking a regional to attend as your first event. Some years, you'll be in a regional where the winning alliance is made up of all team's from out of state - that's a LOT of potential points that aren't awarded to anyone. Other times, there's practically no one from out of state. Sometimes a team that wins Chairman's earns a boatload of points that don't really matter anymore, taking them out of the equation for other teams. And, of course, sometimes it's second-play teams that eat up the available points.