pinning being called consistently?

[Louisiana Jones]

After watching numerous events I've noticed that pinning doesn't seem to be called consistently. One thing I've noticed is that at some regional events pinning seems to be called even when robots don't seem to be pinned. In the following video I noticed that pinning was called immediately when 2907 makes contact with 1540. I've now seen this happen at multiple events and I'm wondering how this will be called at worlds? I'm not sure I agree that this should be called pinning as 1540 clearly wasn't prevented from moving in any way. What does everyone else think?

https://youtu.be/DdYG77EmItc?t=1m52s

[EricH]

Blocking someone on the batter such that they cannot get off is considered pinning, regardless of whether or not they can move.

I'm not sure I'd agree with how early the count started, but it sure got the point across.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

Blocking someone on the batter such that they cannot get off is considered pinning, regardless of whether or not they can move.

I'm not sure I'd agree with how early the count started, but it sure got the point across.

Pin count starts immediately.

[maxnz]

In QF3-1 at 10K Lakes, team 2855 was (somewhat*) pinned in the corner in the opponent's secret passage. Now I can't say for sure that it lasted long enough to be a foul, but they still got the foul on us for being in their secret passage and them touching us. I'm not complaining or anything, because I'm fairly certain that it was legal, but it is just another example of how being in the opponent's secret passage can be risky.


*I say somewhat because we would have encountered a G21 violation if we had tried to leave the corner

[EricH]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Pin count starts immediately.

Immediately on being pinned. WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

[Louisiana Jones]

Originally Posted by EricH

Blocking someone on the batter such that they cannot get off is considered pinning, regardless of whether or not they can move.

Do you really consider 1540 to be blocked on the batter?

This is the excerpt from the game manual that you may be referring to

There is no FIRST Robotics Competition specific definition of pin, so a
general definition applies; “to prevent or stop something from moving.”
As a result, contact is not required for pinning to occur. For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Louisiana Jones

Do you really consider 1540 to be blocked on the batter?

This is the excerpt from the game manual that you may be referring to

There is no FIRST Robotics Competition specific definition of pin, so a
general definition applies; “to prevent or stop something from moving.”
As a result, contact is not required for pinning to occur. For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.

That is the section. Now, you may want to read the following exchange (from shortly after that post):

Originally Posted by rich2202

Pin count starts immediately.

Originally Posted by EricH

Immediately on being pinned. WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

I won't be making any comment as to whether or not that particular ref's judgement was or was not correct.

[AaronSchmitz]

Originally Posted by EricH

WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

Determining this is of course much easier when you can look into the future 2.5 seconds and see 1540 pull away relatively unimpeded.

Source: am that particular ref

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AaronSchmitz

Determining this is of course much easier when you can look into the future 2.5 seconds and see 1540 pull away relatively unimpeded.

Source: am that particular ref

Yep. However, as a ref myself, I saw a number of situations like that that had me very close to signalling the start of a pin count, but within 1 second the situation was not a pin. This is a fluid game.

[Louisiana Jones]

Originally Posted by AaronSchmitz

Determining this is of course much easier when you can look into the future 2.5 seconds and see 1540 pull away relatively unimpeded.

Source: am that particular ref

Great to hear it from the source, and yeah hindsight makes it easy to see. I guess what I'm wondering is how refs at different events were told to call pinning? Maybe you can provide some insight Aaron. I'd like to know how it will be called at champs as it can significantly change the way teams play defense, and how we plan on doing so. Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by Louisiana Jones

For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.

Look this is pretty settled by this point. Was that pinning, maybe. But the bottom line is that robot had 4 seconds and then it had to let the robot on the batter alone.

This rule is why we felt comfortable being a batter shooter, because we knew that you could only mess with us for 4 seconds, and then we get to shoot. Or we get 5 points anyway in foul points.

[AaronSchmitz]

All statements below are purely my own and should not be construed as representing the views of USFIRST, Washington FIRST Robotics, Pacific Northwest FIRST, Oregon FIRST Robotics, FRC Team 949, or any other entity...

Originally Posted by EricH

Yep. However, as a ref myself, I saw a number of situations like that that had me very close to signalling the start of a pin count, but within 1 second the situation was not a pin. This is a fluid game.

If that happens it's easy to wave off with no foul as I do here. If you don't start the count until say 3 seconds in (assuming you're going to give the offending robot 5 seconds to get away), it's not fair to the pinned robot since they're now pinned for up to 8 seconds. In this particular case 2907 had also been pinning aggressively (but legally) throughout the event, so I felt very confident starting a count right away.

Again, it's fair to say this call is questionable. If it were a fellow ref, I wouldn't call it wrong either if they started a pin count or didn't. If 2907 were 2' back and to the left so that 1540 can't back away I'd say pinning is definitely the right call and the count should start immediately, but it's so hard to determine field-side -- especially in the heat of the moment.

Originally Posted by Louisiana Jones

Great to hear it from the source, and yeah hindsight makes it easy to see. I guess what I'm wondering is how refs at different events were told to call pinning? Maybe you can provide some insight Aaron. I'd like to know how it will be called at champs as it can significantly change the way teams play defense, and how we plan on doing so. Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

At PNW DCMP we had an incredibly strong ref crew with an average of ~3 preceding Stronghold events each as ref or head ref so we were probably more capable/confident being strict with fouls than most ref crews. I can't comment on what direction will be given to referees at CMP. I can speculate that defense will be very aggressive at CMP and that since excessive pinning really breaks offense G22 will be strictly enforced.

With regards to T-boning I can't give a general answer, but if the T-boned robot is in contact with some other object and it's motion is stopped or significantly impeded, do you feel this meets the blue box for G22?

With respect to movement, refs aren't psychic. If a robot is simultaneously in contact with an opposing robot and some other object and is not moving, there's a good chance we're going to assume it's not moving because it's pinned. In a batter type scenario, if the pinned robot starts moving within 5 seconds it's most likely going to qualify as "chasing" (see G22) which should cause the pin to be waved off. As a final reminder, pinning continues until the offending robot backs off by 6' for 3 seconds, so once a pin is started any movement by the offending robot within 6' is usually irrelevant.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AaronSchmitz

If that happens it's easy to wave off with no foul as I do here. If you don't start the count until say 3 seconds in (assuming you're going to give the offending robot 5 seconds to get away), it's not fair to the pinned robot since they're now pinned for up to 8 seconds. In this particular case 2907 had also been pinning aggressively (but legally) throughout the event, so I felt very confident starting a count right away.

Again, it's fair to say this call is questionable. If it were a fellow ref, I wouldn't call it wrong either if they started a pin count or didn't. If 2907 were 2' back and to the left so that 1540 can't back away I'd say pinning is definitely the right call and the count should start immediately, but it's so hard to determine field-side -- especially in the heat of the moment.

Yep, I agree with you on that. I trust your judgement on that--you were there, I'm not. And I would agree that the pinning robot was playing smart, legal defense--they backed off as soon as they saw the tomahawk.

With regards to T-boning I can't give a general answer, but if the T-boned robot is in contact with some other object and it's motion is stopped or significantly impeded, do you feel this meets the blue box for G22?

I did see a ref at an event I was at start to call pinning on a T-bone in open space... With the "victim" moving. Just started, though. Great chance for a zebra discussion...

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

Immediately on being pinned. WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

If your robot is blocked in the batter, that is a pin. Regardless of whether there is contact. No different than if the robot is blocked into a corner. The purpose of the PIN Foul is to allow robots have the potential to move freely.

"WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, " is easily resolved during the PIN count period. By the time you get to "2", it is usually pretty obvious if it is a PIN or not. If not, then the PIN count is waived off, no foul, and the robots are free to continue.

PIN does NOT require intention. The mere fact that the Robot is blocked in (and it is easy to block in a robot in a 3-sided closed area like the Batter) creates the PIN.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Louisiana Jones

Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

IMHO, the issue is where the other robot can go. If the robot can only go forward into a guard rail, and backwards into a defending robot, then that is a pin. If the robot can only move into a "trapped' area (corner), then that is also a PIN.

Here is an interesting case:

1) Robot is scoring a low goal in the goal on the side of the Secret Passage.

2) Defending Robot is sitting 6" away in the Courtyard - between the Castle and the Secret passage.

When Scoring Robot exits the Batter, it is pretty much stuck. If it backs up further to go around the defending robot, it will be in the Secret Passage, and exposed to a foul.