Making STEM a better place for women

[Cothron Theiss]

Ok, so I'll interject a question into this discussion to see how other teams handle this. Do you allow dating and relationships between team members? Are there any expectations or standards you set regarding this?

As for my team, we have several relationships between members. Some of these relationships occurred because of their interactions at Robotics, some of these relationships started LONG before they joined Robotics. We have not had any issues with this, but we have had team members leave the team to preserve their relationships with other team members.
So far, no mentor has ever spoken to the students about relationships with other team members, but thankfully we haven't needed anyone to as of yet.

The conversation of the thread has turned more to eliminating sexual harassment before it rears its ugly head in FIRST, but I believe this is a relevant topic. Any other approaches to inter-team relationships?

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

Do you allow dating and relationships between team members?

On the team I was a student, the rule was "absolutely not". It was repeatedly strongly expressed that there would be no visible relationship type stuff happening at robotics. I know that team members were split up in the stands at different points because of this.

My personal mentality as a mentor is that I don't want to see it. FIRST events/build nights are more or less a professional environment, and kissy face doesn't belong there, much less purple hotel rooms. As long as the student doesn't make it a problem for me, I don't care. But I'd better find a better way of expressing that, because telling my kids "don't let me see it" seems like a bad idea!

Jacob

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

My personal mentality as a mentor is that I don't want to see it. FIRST events/build nights are more or less a professional environment, and kissy face doesn't belong there, much less purple hotel rooms.

Wow, thanks for the input. I didn't know if other teams would have strict policies against saying. I had forgotten when I first replied in the thread, but we did have to kick out two members pretty much in the second week of our Rookie build season. They had made it pretty clear they were not there to build robots, and we were housed in an engineering facility at the time. They were never seen again.

Also, you mentioned hotel rooms. Since our Rookie year, we have never had to travel to events. I guess we haven't had to approach that aspect of the issue, just because we haven't gone to Worlds since 2013. I can see that a policy regarding this would be much more important when a team traveled or stayed in a hotel.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

...

That is my true opinion, given that your recommendations can potentially have an effect on the way young men or women report uncomfortable behavior to their authority figures ("this is life", "this is natural"), regardless of whether or not it turns out to be harmless. I'd rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event. I doubt any mentor would feel otherwise,

Mass generalizations rarely capture the full story. Different people from different backgrounds with different characteristics will react to situations very... differently. For instance, I had a situation much like OP, with a student who had some special requirements that came into play. As a mentor I decided to handle the situation a little more gently based on that person's mental illness. "This is life" and "this is normal" is tough. What is normal and who defines it?,

"I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition." is a sufficiently bad example for me.

I am sincerely very glad that your friend had a good experience. Those happen more often than not, though not all experiences are good (again, see above). Many of the bad examples do not need to be shared on a public forum,

By stating "Lets keep in mind that this is natural", "this is life", etc. I strongly disagree. Hiding from someone who is creeping you out is never OK.

A lot of women have strong feelings based on the experiences they've had. Being told "this is life" would not have made it easier if it were me in the OP's situation - in fact, it would have made me feel more isolated for feeling creeped out, when others were telling me "don't be creeped out" when I clearly was. The best option is always to approach a mentor about behavior that makes you uncomfortable, even if it turns out to be misguided flirting. I urge your friend to speak up about her good experience, and if you have not had your own experiences - listen. I did not assume you or the other poster had ill intent by posting, but it doesn't make your messages any less potentially harmful if it discourages students from reporting behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable. I would urge you to send me a message privately if you'd like to have further discourse. I didn't post to argue with you but please realize the potential consequence of your words and how it might affect a young person who encounters this situation. I posted because hopefully someone reads that message that really needs it. That person might not be you.

I agree that growing up is hard - I did it once and it sucked.

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

I don't mean to make a statement of fact about either gender and I am genuinely sorry if my remarks came across to the contrary.

I don't think so. Look, this is a tough topic with lots of strong feelings. Unless we're talking about it, we're not doing much to find the root cause and potential solutions. I commend you for talking about this, but there's no forum post answer. It's not easy. The uncomfortable factor happens to both males and females, I have dealt with both as recently as this year. Sometimes kids just need someone to talk with when a situation makes them uncomfortable. Approaching this in a very adult way - "here is the plan if you feel uncomfortable at any time, and here are 2-3 mentors that you can approach to discuss if needed, judgement free" - will help the students to handle this in an adult way, too.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

That is my true opinion, given that your recommendations can potentially have an effect on the way young men or women report uncomfortable behavior to their authority figures ("this is life", "this is natural"), regardless of whether or not it turns out to be harmless. I'd rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event. I doubt any mentor would feel otherwise,

Mass generalizations rarely capture the full story. Different people from different backgrounds with different characteristics will react to situations very... differently. For instance, I had a situation much like OP, with a student who had some special requirements that came into play. As a mentor I decided to handle the situation a little more gently based on that person's mental illness. "This is life" and "this is normal" is tough. What is normal and who defines it?,

"I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition." is a sufficiently bad example for me.

I am sincerely very glad that your friend had a good experience. Those happen more often than not, though not all experiences are good (again, see above). Many of the bad examples do not need to be shared on a public forum,

By stating "Lets keep in mind that this is natural", "this is life", etc. I strongly disagree. Hiding from someone who is creeping you out is never OK.

A lot of women have strong feelings based on the experiences they've had. Being told "this is life" would not have made it easier if it were me in the OP's situation - in fact, it would have made me feel more isolated for feeling creeped out, when others were telling me "don't be creeped out" when I clearly was. The best option is always to approach a mentor about behavior that makes you uncomfortable, even if it turns out to be misguided flirting. I urge your friend to speak up about her good experience, and if you have not had your own experiences - listen. I did not assume you or the other poster had ill intent by posting, but it doesn't make your messages any less potentially harmful if it discourages students from reporting behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable. I would urge you to send me a message privately if you'd like to have further discourse. I didn't post to argue with you but please realize the potential consequence of your words and how it might affect a young person who encounters this situation. I posted because hopefully someone reads that message that really needs it. That person might not be you.

I agree that growing up is hard - I did it once and it sucked.

I do not believe that anyone is saying that actions that are creepy, or that are perceived as creepy, should be allowed. I think the issue that is arising is the fact that not everyone feels the same away about certain actions.

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger or the majority of FIRSTers. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own preferences and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

We can expand this to student interactions, specifically the frequency and nature of the interactions. Some people may have different preferences for different people based on any number of factors (attraction, hug quality, personal relationship, etc.). Some people do not have the ability to pick up on the other person's preferences and as such they may come off as offensive or creepy. This should be corrected in a constructive way.

What we need to do as mentors (remember the being a positive force in someone's life definition) is help students to realize when they may be making someone else uncomfortable and teach them to notice the signs in the future, as well as how to improve upon their behavior and accept the different kinds of relationships they will have with other people.

* I want to end this post saying that I have not assigned genders to anyone in this post. This is because all genders can play either role.

[dubiousSwain]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

...

* I want to end this post saying that I have not assigned genders to anyone in this post. This is because both genders can play either role.

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but just letting you know that there are more than two genders. Just something to keep in mind as this thread continues.

[Munchskull]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own actions and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

At the risk of getting pulled in into the thick of this conversation I would like to comment about the above post. As some one who is a hugger there can be friction with new friends who do not appreciate hugs. Recently I have taken to giving my friends a quick "bro tap" after an emotionally charged match, awards presentation, ect. If they are receptive great, if not I remember and don'the do it again. Works pretty well, have not had issues.

However when it comes to female friends I am not as quick to give them a hug. I (as a male student) work to be aware of how my actions are perceived by my friend so that an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not created. Is easy to forget that a simple platonic gesture can be miss read when intended for the opposite gender*. It is not to say that I will not give my female friends hug, I just err on the side of caution and make sure that it is a mutual thing.

I am not sure how exactly this pertains to the discussion over all, but I feel that it fits some where. The intend message being that it is OK (and even encouraged) that male and female students intreact, it is up to both parties to recognize boundaries of the other party. And if either party is uncomfortable they should by all means speak up and if necessary get a mentor.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by dubiousSwain

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but just letting you know that there are more than two genders. Just something to keep in mind as this thread continues.

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

Back to the original topic:
Female Engineering mentors, like Minority mentors, are a prized commodity.
The demands on their time and availability as "representatives" are greater in comparison to those placed on traditional "caucasian" male mentors.
The pressure placed upon them due to their "identity" is something that many of us don't quite appreciate or understand.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by Taylor

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

This doesn't really work.

Full disclosure: I'm a MTF Transgender person, and have been open about it for almost a year now. This year, when it came to room arrangements, I was left with an interesting predicament.

Who did I want to stay with? A friend of mine, who happens to be a girl and has helped me greatly through my transition and life in general.

Could I stay with her? No, because I wasn't biologically the same gender as her.
Could I stay with the boys, like last year? No, because I'm a girl.
Could I stay with the mentors maybe? No, because I'm under 18.

So what was left? Well, staying in a room on my own. For 5 nights, in a 2 person room all to myself.

I had a chat with people from the higher up administration and legal departments of our educational institution. In essence, what they told me was:
"You can't change who you are. Just because you don't fit into one of our boxes doesn't mean we're going to force you to."

The Australian department of education's laws defining room arrangements on school trips has a good way of dealing with situations like mine, and I am fairly certain the same system is employed in the US, although you will have to do some research of your own to confirm that. Basically, you can stay with pretty much anyone in your rough age group (i.e. both under 18, or one under 18 and one above 18 if you've known each other closely for more than 2 years) as long as the following conditions are met:

1) All people(s) staying together agree to it
2) All people(s) staying together's parents agree to it
3) Parents agree on the rules that they set out (i.e. no exposure, sleep in different beds, whatever they deem necessary)
4) Students agree to follow these rules and know that if any of them are broken, what the consequences are.
5) None of it is illegal

Ultimately, parents and legal guardians have the final say as long as an agreement is met.

Because of this, I was able to stay with my friend. Everything was fine, we were both happy, and no one was inconvenienced in the slightest.

As soon as you say "well, let's just say it's for liability, they'll understand", you're forcing them to fit into your boxes, which can be extremely damaging to students who don't really fit in the pink or blue boxes, or who desire to fit into the opposite. I'd suggest looking into the actual laws in your country regarding this, because I can promise that if you take the time out to do it, you'll be actively improving the life and confidence of your students, which is what being a mentor is all about.

EDIT: Just to cover all my bases, just remember that this is me sharing my experience. By no means should you take legal advice from me, make sure to do your own research just in case.

[indieFan]

I perceive myself to be socially awkward in many situations, particularly when it comes to dealing with men. (I'm well over 18.) I am currently working to change this with a therapist.

My question is, has anyone/team ever had a meeting with the entire team and discussed what behaviors a male will engage in and how the females will respond and vice-versa? We laugh at comedies like Two and a Half Men when a character is hitting on someone, but do we ever talk about it and how it actually affects someone? Perhaps this is how we start to break down the "creepiness" factor.

As for personal experience, I was working at my day job and approached by someone. I declined his invitation to do an activity together. Several months later, I was approached again to do another activity. I again declined. This time, I also spoke to my team lead who spoke to my manager. The mere fact that I was uncomfortable with this person and it was two events over a several month period meant that HR got involved. It was not my choice to have HR involved, I just wanted to know how to handle it.

Males and females need to understand there are consequences to every action, regardless if it's the one they want to happen. The only question becomes what the consequences will be.

[Pauline Tasci]

The way to change a culture is to stop treating the"creeps" as they're just being boys and start treating it like an issue.
Start treating it like harassment, and something that should never be taken lightly.

The worse part of this day and age is that this no longer just happens at competitions, with things like facebook and twitter people add eachother from all over the FIRST community and it's even easier to stalk someone at competition and harass people via messages.

This is harassment, not "boys will be boys."

(with that the same can happen with girls creeping on boys)

[alicen]

Just popped into this, to make a minor note. It's not always the students, and it's not always about physical attraction/flirting or whatever.

In my job in the real world, I am the only woman at my company and have had absolutely zero problems. In my last job, I was the only woman in the engineering department - again with zero problems. On my team in high school I had zero problems with teammates even though I was the only active female.

I had exactly one issue in the entire time I've been involved in FIRST. I had a mentor (he was the teacher sponsor) who chose to harass me and degrade me and my work, telling me that I was causing the team to fail and that I would ruin the team. At the time, we had very few active members and nobody else working on the CAD/mechanical stuff other than me.

I look back on this now and realize I should have brought this to the administration instead of just the other two mentors (non teachers), but I'm also thankful that that's the worst I've experienced when I know other people who have been through much, much worse.

I don't think there's any one thing that will fix/solve the problems that women face in STEM, and I don't believe that things will get better fast. However, with each group of kids that grows up things are getting better and better, so I think that we need to look at the kids that are growing up and learn something about tolerance and equality from them

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by paunatime

The way to change a culture is to stop treating the"creeps" as they're just being boys and start treating it like an issue.
Start treating it like harassment, and something that should never be taken lightly.

The worse part of this day and age is that this no longer just happens at competitions, with things like facebook and twitter people add eachother from all over the FIRST community and it's even easier to stalk someone at competition and harass people via messages.

This is harassment, not "boys will be boys."

(with that the same can happen with girls creeping on boys)

preach

I am unaware of inter-team student interactions being something covered in FIRST's YPP. If it is, it is not something that is well published or something I remember having an offer to train on. On 422 (like most teams, I hope and assume) all team members sign a code of conduct (including mentors, but ours is different). Members who slip up in treating people like people and solving issues in a constructive way face remedial action for most first offenses, and at least suspension on a second offense.

Cards on the table, there have been instances where team members have exhibited actions similar to and far more extreme than ones in this thread, and if corrective action did not remedy the issue, they were summarily disappeared.

However, as far as I am aware the tools to help these issues outside of my team are either what I believe to be inadequate or simply nonexistent. It is a serious problem we have been and will continue to looking to solve in a constructive and thorough way in the coming year.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by indieFan

My question is, has anyone/team ever had a meeting with the entire team and discussed what behaviors a male will engage in and how the females will respond and vice-versa? We laugh at comedies like Two and a Half Men when a character is hitting on someone, but do we ever talk about it and how it actually affects someone? Perhaps this is how we start to break down the "creepiness" factor.

No.

We've had discussions as an entire team, on making sure your actions, and words are respectful of others. If you don't know if they like hugging or not, don't hug. We kind of talked a lot more about words but I think our discussion applied equally. This was initiated by me.

I've had smaller group discussions and even one-on-ones regarding that which was generally student initiated, or if I knew about an issue.