Making STEM a better place for women

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

Do you allow dating and relationships between team members?

On the team I was a student, the rule was "absolutely not". It was repeatedly strongly expressed that there would be no visible relationship type stuff happening at robotics. I know that team members were split up in the stands at different points because of this.

My personal mentality as a mentor is that I don't want to see it. FIRST events/build nights are more or less a professional environment, and kissy face doesn't belong there, much less purple hotel rooms. As long as the student doesn't make it a problem for me, I don't care. But I'd better find a better way of expressing that, because telling my kids "don't let me see it" seems like a bad idea!

Jacob

[izz]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

One possible solution would be to have mentors sit in areas where a female student could potentially be bothered by male student[s].

Example:
There is a group of male students sitting around a female student. If there is a mentor sitting with them, they will be less encouraged to do anything wierd.

Being a female student who usually prefers to hang out in large groups of guys rather than girls, I disagree with this idea. I occasionally already feel somewhat different than most of my friends because of societal gender segregation, and this would only make things worse if my friends were watched every time I hung out with them just because I am a girl. That being said, people (including other students) should look out for odd behavior because it does sometimes happen.

[bombodail]

I think the best thing to do would be to treat it no different than if the guy was creeping out another guy. Pull the perpetrator aside and say human xyz does not appreciate such behavior, and there maybe further consequences if it persists. I don't think there is a need to bring discriminatory traits into this. Of course you may also wish to warn the perpetrator that the legal system is heavily stacked against him, if this escalates.





I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

[ollien]

One of our team members talked to me after our first regional and said that there were some far more creepy comments than what could be considered "casual flirting." I think that FIRST needs to take some kind of action, whether it's as minimal as a note in the admin manual that all team members should be comfortable with each other's words/actions, or something as extreme as a designated mediator at events.

To quote the definition of gracious professionalism (emphasis mine)

Gracious Professionalism®is part of the ethos of FIRST. It’s a way of doing things that encourages high quality work, emphasizes the value of others, and respects individuals and the community.

Let's all remember that we're here to get inspired. The easiest way to uninspired someone is to make them feel unwelcome and disrespected.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

My personal mentality as a mentor is that I don't want to see it. FIRST events/build nights are more or less a professional environment, and kissy face doesn't belong there, much less purple hotel rooms.

Wow, thanks for the input. I didn't know if other teams would have strict policies against saying. I had forgotten when I first replied in the thread, but we did have to kick out two members pretty much in the second week of our Rookie build season. They had made it pretty clear they were not there to build robots, and we were housed in an engineering facility at the time. They were never seen again.

Also, you mentioned hotel rooms. Since our Rookie year, we have never had to travel to events. I guess we haven't had to approach that aspect of the issue, just because we haven't gone to Worlds since 2013. I can see that a policy regarding this would be much more important when a team traveled or stayed in a hotel.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

...

That is my true opinion, given that your recommendations can potentially have an effect on the way young men or women report uncomfortable behavior to their authority figures ("this is life", "this is natural"), regardless of whether or not it turns out to be harmless. I'd rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event. I doubt any mentor would feel otherwise,

Mass generalizations rarely capture the full story. Different people from different backgrounds with different characteristics will react to situations very... differently. For instance, I had a situation much like OP, with a student who had some special requirements that came into play. As a mentor I decided to handle the situation a little more gently based on that person's mental illness. "This is life" and "this is normal" is tough. What is normal and who defines it?,

"I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition." is a sufficiently bad example for me.

I am sincerely very glad that your friend had a good experience. Those happen more often than not, though not all experiences are good (again, see above). Many of the bad examples do not need to be shared on a public forum,

By stating "Lets keep in mind that this is natural", "this is life", etc. I strongly disagree. Hiding from someone who is creeping you out is never OK.

A lot of women have strong feelings based on the experiences they've had. Being told "this is life" would not have made it easier if it were me in the OP's situation - in fact, it would have made me feel more isolated for feeling creeped out, when others were telling me "don't be creeped out" when I clearly was. The best option is always to approach a mentor about behavior that makes you uncomfortable, even if it turns out to be misguided flirting. I urge your friend to speak up about her good experience, and if you have not had your own experiences - listen. I did not assume you or the other poster had ill intent by posting, but it doesn't make your messages any less potentially harmful if it discourages students from reporting behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable. I would urge you to send me a message privately if you'd like to have further discourse. I didn't post to argue with you but please realize the potential consequence of your words and how it might affect a young person who encounters this situation. I posted because hopefully someone reads that message that really needs it. That person might not be you.

I agree that growing up is hard - I did it once and it sucked.

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

I don't mean to make a statement of fact about either gender and I am genuinely sorry if my remarks came across to the contrary.

I don't think so. Look, this is a tough topic with lots of strong feelings. Unless we're talking about it, we're not doing much to find the root cause and potential solutions. I commend you for talking about this, but there's no forum post answer. It's not easy. The uncomfortable factor happens to both males and females, I have dealt with both as recently as this year. Sometimes kids just need someone to talk with when a situation makes them uncomfortable. Approaching this in a very adult way - "here is the plan if you feel uncomfortable at any time, and here are 2-3 mentors that you can approach to discuss if needed, judgement free" - will help the students to handle this in an adult way, too.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

I thought about it for a while, and yes, I think these are two of the most potentially harmful things I have ever read on this forum. In 15 years, that is quite a feat.

What you both are saying, to your mentors, your peers, and the whole of this community, is that your personal experience and gut feeling about an experience you haven't personally had trumps documented and researched societal bias, not to mention the experiences others HAVE had. To expect people of all genders to behave responsibly, and with respect toward other human beings, is not and will never be unrealistic. Because it does not happen 100% of the time does not mean the answer should be "deal with it".

Inflammatory rhetoric aside, I agree. "Deal with it" is an insufficient response. Mentors should be teaching how to deal with it. You can work to eliminate it, but meanwhile, take steps to mitigate damage. It's like a vaccine. Yeah, whooping cough sucks, and I shouldn't have to worry about my kid getting sick. Am I going to inoculate my (theoretical) child? Yes.

- lumping in all females into one large group together without taking almost infinite factors into account (race, gender, height, weight, background, communication methods, invisible illnesses, etc.),

So you say take things case by case? The exact thing I was saying?

- trivializing seriously disturbing behavior toward women,

See, you are doing what you are supposedly against. You are lumping every possible incident under one umbrella. Characterizing awkward situations as 'seriously disturbing' is a gross overreaction, and moves shame from the victim to the offender. What I want is no one to feel shame while coming to an understanding.

- speaking on behalf of women, all women! women everywhere! every single woman!, without discernable qualifications, and perhaps most important,

No I didn't. Show me where I purported to do so.

- deciding that the way women deal with situations is a woman's responsibility, but others' behavior is not their own responsibility

Again, where do you come up with this? When I say caution is important, that does not mean to absolve people of their transgressions.

This kind of thinking creates a cyclical culture of alienating women from a community and then wondering why more women don't want to join that community. Trivializing anyone's experiences - of any gender - does nothing to help but does repeat that pattern, and in this way it is harmful. Thinking like this is why women are discouraged from STEM. Thinking like this is why women don't speak up. I say that because as a student way back when, hearing/seeing my mentors or peers speaking like this would have immediately shut me off from this program. Immediately. .

Again, you need context here. You are lumping every possible awkward situation 'seriously disturbing,' and that they are not meant to be trivialized. Just because I think that there are worse things in the world than a boy unable to properly gauge a situation doesn't mean I trivialize sexual abuse. In fact, lumping in awkwardness is what, by definition, trivializes abuse.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

That is my true opinion, given that your recommendations can potentially have an effect on the way young men or women report uncomfortable behavior to their authority figures ("this is life", "this is natural"), regardless of whether or not it turns out to be harmless. I'd rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event. I doubt any mentor would feel otherwise,

Mass generalizations rarely capture the full story. Different people from different backgrounds with different characteristics will react to situations very... differently. For instance, I had a situation much like OP, with a student who had some special requirements that came into play. As a mentor I decided to handle the situation a little more gently based on that person's mental illness. "This is life" and "this is normal" is tough. What is normal and who defines it?,

"I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition." is a sufficiently bad example for me.

I am sincerely very glad that your friend had a good experience. Those happen more often than not, though not all experiences are good (again, see above). Many of the bad examples do not need to be shared on a public forum,

By stating "Lets keep in mind that this is natural", "this is life", etc. I strongly disagree. Hiding from someone who is creeping you out is never OK.

A lot of women have strong feelings based on the experiences they've had. Being told "this is life" would not have made it easier if it were me in the OP's situation - in fact, it would have made me feel more isolated for feeling creeped out, when others were telling me "don't be creeped out" when I clearly was. The best option is always to approach a mentor about behavior that makes you uncomfortable, even if it turns out to be misguided flirting. I urge your friend to speak up about her good experience, and if you have not had your own experiences - listen. I did not assume you or the other poster had ill intent by posting, but it doesn't make your messages any less potentially harmful if it discourages students from reporting behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable. I would urge you to send me a message privately if you'd like to have further discourse. I didn't post to argue with you but please realize the potential consequence of your words and how it might affect a young person who encounters this situation. I posted because hopefully someone reads that message that really needs it. That person might not be you.

I agree that growing up is hard - I did it once and it sucked.

I do not believe that anyone is saying that actions that are creepy, or that are perceived as creepy, should be allowed. I think the issue that is arising is the fact that not everyone feels the same away about certain actions.

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger or the majority of FIRSTers. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own preferences and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

We can expand this to student interactions, specifically the frequency and nature of the interactions. Some people may have different preferences for different people based on any number of factors (attraction, hug quality, personal relationship, etc.). Some people do not have the ability to pick up on the other person's preferences and as such they may come off as offensive or creepy. This should be corrected in a constructive way.

What we need to do as mentors (remember the being a positive force in someone's life definition) is help students to realize when they may be making someone else uncomfortable and teach them to notice the signs in the future, as well as how to improve upon their behavior and accept the different kinds of relationships they will have with other people.

* I want to end this post saying that I have not assigned genders to anyone in this post. This is because all genders can play either role.

[jweston]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Look, this is a tough topic with lots of strong feelings. Unless we're talking about it, we're not doing much to find the root cause and potential solutions. I commend you for talking about this, but there's no forum post answer. It's not easy. The uncomfortable factor happens to both males and females, I have dealt with both as recently as this year. Sometimes kids just need someone to talk with when a situation makes them uncomfortable. Approaching this in a very adult way - "here is the plan if you feel uncomfortable at any time, and here are 2-3 mentors that you can approach to discuss if needed, judgement free" - will help the students to handle this in an adult way, too.

One of the things that makes this so difficult is one person's awkward flirting is another's persistent harassment. It gets complicated because in at least many American subcultures, girls are socialized to be accommodating and, if not passive, non-aggressive (YMMV).

This means girls often have a lot of trouble figuring out when it's reasonable for them to tell a guy to back off because, hey, this guy was just trying to be nice. A great example is when a guy starts talking about how favorably he finds a girl's personal appearance. I won't call that "complimenting" because it's really all about him. Or he buys her gifts. Or he tries to do her favors, even if she doesn't want them.

This sets a trap because we call these things compliments or being nice when it's really all about what the guy wants. A girl who finds herself facing a guy's advances that she does not actively welcome (i.e. she's either neutral or does not want them) has two choices: she can either endure, perhaps with greatest levels of socially acceptable discouragement and hope he goes away; or she can tell the guy to back off and risk being labeled as someone who can't take a compliment or is anti-social or stuck up. Not just by the guy, but by her community. Whether or not you believe that fear is reasonable, it's very real to many, many girls. Sadly, I have seen too often communities come down on a girl because she "could have been a little nicer about it."

This is really a human issue. Maybe we in FRC are a little more aware of it because our community knows that girls are underrepresented in STEM and we're trying to find a way to balance that. Plus, as noted, many teenagers are inexperienced and/or immature. They're going to make mistakes. That's not an excuse, just a realistic expectation.

The important part is to make sure students who make mistakes are corrected. The student doesn't need to be embarrassed into submission. They need to understand how they can tell if their actions will create an unwelcoming environment.

[dubiousSwain]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

...

* I want to end this post saying that I have not assigned genders to anyone in this post. This is because both genders can play either role.

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but just letting you know that there are more than two genders. Just something to keep in mind as this thread continues.

[Munchskull]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own actions and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

At the risk of getting pulled in into the thick of this conversation I would like to comment about the above post. As some one who is a hugger there can be friction with new friends who do not appreciate hugs. Recently I have taken to giving my friends a quick "bro tap" after an emotionally charged match, awards presentation, ect. If they are receptive great, if not I remember and don'the do it again. Works pretty well, have not had issues.

However when it comes to female friends I am not as quick to give them a hug. I (as a male student) work to be aware of how my actions are perceived by my friend so that an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not created. Is easy to forget that a simple platonic gesture can be miss read when intended for the opposite gender*. It is not to say that I will not give my female friends hug, I just err on the side of caution and make sure that it is a mutual thing.

I am not sure how exactly this pertains to the discussion over all, but I feel that it fits some where. The intend message being that it is OK (and even encouraged) that male and female students intreact, it is up to both parties to recognize boundaries of the other party. And if either party is uncomfortable they should by all means speak up and if necessary get a mentor.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own actions and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

Hugging someone who does not want to be hugged should not be a "comfortable" action. The hugger in that case is not in the right. The huggee is not responsible for respecting the hugger's preference to give the hug.



What you are saying sounds disturbingly close to the idea that rejecting an advance can be considered an attack. I'm sure you don't think that's how you said it, but as a hug-averse person myself, I have had to threaten more than one team mascot with an official complaint when they refuse to accept that I do not want to be touched, much less hugged. The all-too-common reaction is to accuse me of being mean to them.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Hugging someone who does not want to be hugged should not be a "comfortable" action. The hugger in that case is not in the right. The huggee is not responsible for respecting the hugger's preference to give the hug.



What you are saying sounds disturbingly close to the idea that rejecting an advance can be considered an attack. I'm sure you don't think that's how you said it, but as a hug-averse person myself, I have had to threaten more than one team mascot with an official complaint when they refuse to accept that I do not want to be touched, much less hugged. The all-too-common reaction is to accuse me of being mean to them.

I mistakenly put the wrong word in my post and I have changed it. The person wanting to give people hugs should be comfortable in wanting to give hugs, as the person wanting to avoid physical contact should be comfortable in turning down a hug. The potential hugger is responsible for respecting the other person's objection to the hug, as the huggee is responsible for respecting the hugger's preference to give hugs to others, even if they do not participate themselves.

[AmiableVariable]

Preface: my problems here are not in reference to my team

Originally Posted by jweston

A girl who finds herself facing a guy's advances that she does not actively welcome (i.e. she's either neutral or does not want them) has two choices: she can either endure, perhaps with greatest levels of socially acceptable discouragement and hope he goes away; or she can tell the guy to back off and risk being labeled as someone who can't take a compliment or is anti-social or stuck up. Not just by the guy, but by her community. Whether or not you believe that fear is reasonable, it's very real to many, many girls. Sadly, I have seen too often communities come down on a girl because she "could have been a little nicer about it."

^Trimmed for length

I have personally been on the wrong end of this. Though it is not exclusive to the FIRST community, it does definitely exist. I have a couple examples of people either hovering around creepily for extended periods of time, and of people blatantly touching me without my consent. One standout:Last year during eliminations at Worlds, I had an alliance partner who decided it was a fantastic idea to walk up behind me and run their hands down both of my shoulders. Though I very quickly disabused them of this notion, this left me feel a little unsettled, especially in such a high-stress environment. All I basically did was turn around, glare, and tell them not to touch me, and they quickly backed off. When I finally got around to telling this to my mom several months later, in the context of being worried about going into engineering due to gender issues, the first reaction was to say that I could have been perceived as a "psychotic *****", and to give me a lecture on how to be gentler in redresses if I wanted to really make a change in the community. This sort of reaction is a problem, and definitely gave me pause as I was working through applying to school for engineering.

In regards to the comments about the problem being awkward and well-meaning youth, I am a fan of the quote: "Your right to swing your arms ends at my right not to be punched in the nose". Rewritten for this case: "Your right to be an awkward human seeking affection ends at my right to have my personal boundaries and space respected". People have the right to set their own boundaries, and expect people to respect at least the standard socially agreed upon ones. There is no need for me to respect the preference of the person crossing my boundary, no more than there is for me to respect the desire of someone to punch me. Appropriate actions may vary.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Lets keep in mind that this is natural.

There are quite a few socially awkward male and females in robotics so these situations can get worse. And, the lack of females with the interest can extenuate the situation but regardless this is life.
.

The person being encroached upon has the final say as to whether or not their boundaries have been crossed. To be devils advocate: If I feel that the level of harassment/ boundary issues is higher in engineering than my general life (which it most definitely is), and those in the field insist that this is natural, and just part of life in engineering, why on earth would I be willing to put in the effort to be rewarded with a hazardous and emotionally draining environment? It takes a very high level of interest to be willing to deal with that on a regular basis. Have you ever had to consider that by working in a STEM field, you will statistically be more likely to be harassed and discriminated against? Because that in itself is a significant deterrent, without the issue being brushed aside. There are reasons why girls tend to show less interest.

I agree that there is no inherent harm in flirting where boundaries are respected. I do have a problem with a blanket statement of "this is life" and "this is natural "in a thread where the topic of discussion trends towards harassment and how to deal with it to make for a more welcoming environment. Even if you intended to refer to indubitably clean mutual flirting, the context and phrasing made it sound much worse. Ditto for indirectly attributing these problems on girls lack of interest in the field. Neither make for a more welcoming environment.

Originally Posted by Munchskull

The intend message being that it is OK (and even encouraged) that male and female students intreact, it is up to both parties to recognize boundaries of the other party. And if either party is uncomfortable they should by all means speak up and if necessary get a mentor.

As a (female) friend of Munchskull's, I can say that he tends to be pretty good about this, from what I have seen. He always gestures and makes sure he gets a positive response before getting into peoples space. I also see no problem with this, as long as everyone is happy with it. I am a big fan of hugs, as long as I get a say in whether or not I am getting them. As soon as someone isn't ok it is time to just back off.

As to how to teach this, I am not certain. Prevention wise, I would say the key points need to be teaching students appropriate boundaries. Defensive wise, I agree strongly with MysterE's advice. Stress the concept that people have the right to feel safe in this environment, whether that be themselves or others.

[MariOlsen]

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

People of ChiefDelphi,

On one of the teams I have mentored, I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition.

I've seen similar behavior at the college level with a handful of close friends.

This is definitely a loaded topic which is made even tougher because people have different levels of tolerance for possibly creepy behavior.

To start, I think everyone agrees that the vast majority of people in FIRST and STEM in general are kind, mature individuals who know how to behave responsibly and can read social cues. Unfortunately, it's the negative cases that stick out and can be off-putting.

As a woman at a technical school, I've not experienced direct harassment. Only one of my male classmates has ever treated me condescendingly, and it's possible that it wasn't because of my gender. However, a group of friends and I have been seriously creeped out by one of the men living in our dorm. It was difficult to come up with why exactly he was so much creepier than our friends and explain why we were more comfortable sitting next to and physically interacting with the other guys but not him, but luckily we were able to have someone talk to him on our behalf. It hasn't stopped entirely, but having explicit permission to call him out and explain to him that he's making us uncomfortable not only makes us more comfortable but will hopefully help him in the future. It would be great if this permission could be granted explicitly through teams, FIRST, and other STEM organizations, because in my experience, even the most outspoken of us are hesitant to be openly "confrontational".

On the other hand, I have been told by friends that guys were acting creepily towards me even though I just interpreted it as social awkwardness (even though I was seriously avoiding some of them; major red flag). I was convinced that most of them would be mortified if someone told them they were being creepy or assumed they were romantically interested in me, but I've been wrong at least once and was called an ice queen for refusing to go to a dance with him.

Teenagers are mean, and I think it's important to emphasize that just because a girl is kind to you does not necessarily mean she'll want to be your date, and no girl should ever feel obligated to be someone's pity date. Communication really helps: once it was made clear that I was not interested, 4 years of awkwardness practically disappeared. He joined the team and we worked well together. However, I feel like it may be even more awkward to presume a romantic interest if none exists.

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

Do you allow dating and relationships between team members?

My team had a relationship, but they were on different subteams so it mainly worked out. Our mentors just had them sit near the front during the ride to St. Louis and there may have been some hand-holding/arms around each other during matches but that was it. I dated someone on another team; we avoided talking about private team business but since his team was mentoring mine we were a convenient communication link. I think the most disruptive we got was when our teams were sitting a row apart watching Einstein and we texted about the matches rather than directly talking because we were sitting with our teams. A couple of his mentors came up and asked "Why don't you two just sit together already?" and moved so that we could sit in between the teams. As long as people are mature, don't let it interfere with the team, and avoid PDA, there shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Munchskull

However when it comes to female friends I am not as quick to give them a hug. I (as a male student) work to be aware of how my actions are perceived by my friend so that an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not created. Is easy to forget that a simple platonic gesture can be miss read when intended for the opposite gender*. It is not to say that I will not give my female friends hug, I just err on the side of caution and make sure that it is a mutual thing.

Originally Posted by AmiableVariable

As a (female) friend of Munchskull's, I can say that he tends to be pretty good about this, from what I have seen. He always gestures and makes sure he gets a positive response before getting into peoples space. I also see no problem with this, as long as everyone is happy with it. I am a big fan of hugs, as long as I get a say in whether or not I am getting them. As soon as someone isn't ok it is time to just back off.

All of the guys on my team have become some of my best friends, so I feel perfectly comfortable hugging most of them. There are some that I simply don't know well enough to hug and others that I always ask before hugging, and I know which ones I can give running hugs to after particularly great matches. It may be easier initiating a hug as a female, but I feel like standing with arms outstretched and waiting for them to hug you is pretty safe and that it's fairly obvious when hugs are consensual or not. At first, I was always the one initiating hugs, but I really enjoy the fact that some of them feel comfortable hugging me too.

What about mentors hugging students (or students hugging mentors)? I feel like most people would say that mentors ought not to initiate a hug, but what about accepting one? I hug as a form of greeting if I feel comfortable with someone, but some of my mentors refused to let me hug them until I graduated. I understand that hugs may be misinterpreted and thus are probably best avoided, but it still makes me a bit sad.