Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.

[Sperkowsky]

I am going to preface this by saying I love this forum but, sometimes it can be brutal. The big reason why I am making this thread was stemmed from series of comments on my F4 thread.

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

often enough, kids can't express how they really feel without criticism. This has the potential to help a lot of people better their own teams.
.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Exactly! That is something CD definitely showed me over the time I have been active year. Having students in a comfortable discussion format allows for their opinions to be expressed without any fear.

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

Are you saying that CD is not a comfortable place for students to voice their opinions? I'd like to hear more about this and how that could be changed. Maybe you could use that as a topic for a future show.

So, yea....

I joined CD over a year ago while my team was in a cycle of failure. No one knew what to do and it was a place to gain FRC insight. Being I talkative person in general I jumped straight into discussion. Probably not the wisest idea being my knowledge level at the time. One of my first posts was completely out of line and was just an unnecessary statement calling a 254 robot mentor built. Looking back I can not fathom why I would put such a statement on the internet but I did. I got as I could now predict a swarm of red dots. Knocking me well below into negative points. Especially since one of the people was Karthik. After realizing how dumb my post was I pmed all of the people that redded me to apologize. Except for the people who threated me....

Originally Posted by Karthik

Hi Sperkowsky,

Apology accepted. The reason I gave you a negative rep was not because of your opinion, rather that your post insulted and demeaned the hard work of the students on 254. Having worked with them closely, I know that they are fully involved with their robot, and as talented as any other group of FIRST students. Yes, they do have amazing mentors, but a by product of this is that these students have learned so much from these mentors. This is why they can consistently perform at such a high level.

I'm sorry that people felt the need to threaten you. As much as you post upset me, there's no reason for anyone to stoop to that level.

Thanks for taking the time to apologize. Good luck to you and your team this season!

So, I was now a student with my team number in my BIO sitting with 4 red dots. Realizing how bad it looked to my team I contacted Brandon Martus who helped me out and brought me into green. It was a second chance.

From there I continued posting quite a bit. Often times my opinion was disregarded. It was not that my posts were always bad it was just that some mentors had a hard time taking advice or discussing something with a student.

Despite me also getting greened quite a bit I still had my fair share of red dots. Some from respected mentors some not so respected. Ironically with quite a lot of dots at this point only one red one came from a student and it was very recently and did not actually make logical sense. There were a few dots that made sense. I may have went a little too far or said something rude but the majority were just from angry people with a different opinion.

I sometimes make jokes that my RP page is Christmas themed with the Red, Gray, and Green dots. Luckily my green dots outweigh my red ones at this point.

You may have noticed by now the thread I quoted earlier was from months ago. The reason why I started this thread was after a long discussion with the F4 community of students. We found that many of felt looked down upon from mentors and that the RP system was abused by quite a few of them.

If you are a new member here my advice is to re-read your posts and make sure they are both factual, and respectful. Do not post when angry and make sure to follow FIRST ideals at all times.

Lets make sure to make this a safe place for both students and mentors. Lets simply be kind and take a second to understand the intent of a post before reacting. Also I urge everyone to only red dot someone if they are being blatantly rude, or disrespectful. Someone accidentally quoting the wrong page of a manual or disagreeing with you respectfully are not a reason for a red dot. That is what grey dots are for.

- Sam

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

From there I continued posting quite a bit. Often times my opinion was disregarded. It was not that my posts were always bad it was just that some mentors had a hard time taking advice or discussing something with a student.

I don't think that mentors have a hard time taking good advice. I bet most of us have a hardened skepticism against "claims", "opinions", "thoughts" and "feelings" that are not backed up by data, facts, verified demonstrations or in some cases - common sense.

Then there's the time it would take to gather the data, facts, or verified demonstrations in order to incontrovertibly correct a bad opinion. Personally I don't respond to a lot of 'wrong' posts simply because of that.

All in all, the dot system is a way to PM someone and project "thoughts" and "feelings" that then hopefully correct behaviors. It's like a CD emoticon that serves as a +1, 'like' or Upvote/Downvote. Do you think that without the red dots you would have had the motivation to change at all?

edit - quick note after following the first few quote - this post is more about your journey on CD in general over the last year, rather than anything about your show. IMO, it's a great thing you're working so hard to keep the student side of FRC alive! I may send a few kids your way if you want more guests. Let me gauge interest.

[FRANKlybored]

There's a very old saying on these forums:

Originally Posted by Brandon Martus

They're just dots.

It's a message that I've learned to live by for a long time, both on and off these forums.

[AcesJames]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Lets make sure to make this a safe place for both students and mentors.

Nope. I'm gonna be honest here, based on what you've just posted, it seems to me that the thing that finally changed your perception was Karthik's negative reputation and subsequent private message conversation. In the offline real world, it works the same way. You have the right to open your mouth (or type on a keyboard) and say whatever you want, but in doing so you open yourself up to criticism. Creating a safe space where no one is allowed to tell each other when they're wrong stifles teaching and learning opportunities.

Clearly you've already learned something from this experience so I wont harp on it, but I think it would be better to "check yourself" before you make a post instead of doing so unfiltered and then deflecting the consequential criticisms.

[rwodonnell]

I'm going to go ahead an demonstrate my ignorance. Can someone please explain what dots you are talking about? Is there a reputation system on CD that I never knew of? I can't see anything on my personal profile page, nor any of yours.

[logank013]

Originally Posted by rwodonnell

I'm going to go ahead an demonstrate my ignorance. Can someone please explain what dots you are talking about? Is there a reputation system on CD that I never knew of? I can't see anything on my personal profile page, nor any of yours.

Look at the top right of any of your posts, you have 2 green dots. You can also go to your "user cp" and wee who gave you rep and why they gave you rep.

Edit: full rules of the reputation system can be found here.

[Peyton Yeung]

Originally Posted by rwodonnell

I'm going to go ahead an demonstrate my ignorance. Can someone please explain what dots you are talking about? Is there a reputation system on CD that I never knew of? I can't see anything on my personal profile page, nor any of yours.

It's the green or red dots under your post count. This is view able in the top right of each of your posts.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by rwodonnell

I'm going to go ahead an demonstrate my ignorance. Can someone please explain what dots you are talking about? Is there a reputation system on CD that I never knew of? I can't see anything on my personal profile page, nor any of yours.

Top right of any post.

Giving positive karma to Nate Laverdure or Wil Payne will result in your own karma going down so fair warning.

Remember, they're just dots.

[Carl C]

Originally Posted by rwodonnell

I'm going to go ahead an demonstrate my ignorance. Can someone please explain what dots you are talking about? Is there a reputation system on CD that I never knew of? I can't see anything on my personal profile page, nor any of yours.

They are the small, green or red gradients that appear directly under your post count (another number that doesn't really mean much) on the top right side of any post.

[rwodonnell]

Wow, 3 answers very quickly! I confess I've not noticed any of the stuff on the right side of the posts. Thanks for the heads up.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I don't think that mentors have a hard time taking good advice.

All in all, the dot system is a way to PM someone and project "thoughts" and "feelings" that then hopefully correct behaviors. It's like a CD emoticon that serves as a +1, 'like' or Upvote/Downvote. Do you think that without the red dots you would have had the motivation to change at all?

edit - quick note after following the first few quote - this post is more about your journey on CD in general over the last year, rather than anything about your show. IMO, it's a great thing you're working so hard to keep the student side of FRC alive! I may send a few kids your way if you want more guests. Let me gauge interest.

What I think may be the issue for some is the disconnect between a mentor student relationship on the Internet to one in real life. But overall I agree.

Also I fully support the cp more commonly known as rp system. Without it I probably would have changed quite a bit slower and it's definitely a good wakeup call once in a while.

Lastly yup this didn't have much to do with my show thanks though. If your students or anyone else wants to join apply here http://goo.gl/forms/vKi7FIqj1c we have about 40 members on our slack and it's extremely active.

[EricLeifermann]

I think part of the issue is that students these days are so connected to the internet and social media that they over post. They come in all excited and saturate CD with a lot of useless posts and questions that could be found with a proper search.

Not to point you out as a negative but look at your numbers Sperkowsky.

You joined: Jan 2015 total posts 1280 in just over 15 months

Now look at me

Joined Jan 2007 total posts 966 in just over 9 years. (i had another account before but was inactive for a time on CD and couldn't remember it)

There are many times that I write up a post and then end up not posting it because at the end of the day what I was going to say wasn't really going to add to the conversation or after I typed it out I realized it wasn't really worth getting into the conversation.

I've preached this about team growth in FRC but it works here as well. Quality over quantity.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by AcesJames

Nope. I'm gonna be honest here, based on what you've just posted, it seems to me that the thing that finally changed your perception was Karthik's negative reputation and subsequent private message conversation. In the offline real world, it works the same way. You have the right to open your mouth (or type on a keyboard) and say whatever you want, but in doing so you open yourself up to criticism. Creating a safe space where no one is allowed to tell each other when they're wrong stifles teaching and learning opportunities.

Clearly you've already learned something from this experience so I wont harp on it, but I think it would be better to "check yourself" before you make a post instead of doing so unfiltered and then deflecting the consequential criticisms.

When I say safe place I do not mean neglecting the rep system. What I am saying is we should make sure students do not have their opinions shut down withoit real reason and the unnecessary reputation doesn't get thrown around.

[lethc]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

When I say safe place I do not mean neglecting the rep system. What I am saying is we should make sure students do not have their opinions shut down withoit real reason and the unnecessary reputation doesn't get thrown around.

What constitutes certain reputation as unnecessary?

[Carolyn_Grace]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

When I say safe place I do not mean neglecting the rep system. What I am saying is we should make sure students do not have their opinions shut down withoit real reason and the unnecessary reputation doesn't get thrown around.

I believe you make some solid points, especially pointing out that unnecessary reputation shouldn't be thrown around. But what may seem unnecessary to one person, may seem productive to another.

For example, I have been known to give red dots to students (usually ones that I personally mentor) who post on CD without editing their content to be more professional. It may seem frivolous to give red dots for text speak and incorrect grammar, but one of the things I appreciate about CD is the professional communication.

How do you better propose to encourage and teach students the proper way of interacting on CD?