Making STEM a better place for women

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by dubiousSwain

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but just letting you know that there are more than two genders. Just something to keep in mind as this thread continues.

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

Back to the original topic:
Female Engineering mentors, like Minority mentors, are a prized commodity.
The demands on their time and availability as "representatives" are greater in comparison to those placed on traditional "caucasian" male mentors.
The pressure placed upon them due to their "identity" is something that many of us don't quite appreciate or understand.

[jweston]

Originally Posted by MariOlsen

As a woman at a technical school, I've not experienced direct harassment.
...

On the other hand, I have been told by friends that guys were acting creepily towards me even though I just interpreted it as social awkwardness (even though I was seriously avoiding some of them; major red flag). I was convinced that most of them would be mortified if someone told them they were being creepy or assumed they were romantically interested in me, but I've been wrong at least once and was called an ice queen for refusing to go to a dance with him.

It's interesting how blurry the line can be between reasonable behavior and harassment. If you have guys who are creeping on you enough that you feel the need to avoid them, we're quickly sliding into harassment territory. If you turn someone down and get called names like "ice queen", it's definitely harassment, simply because the messge to females is "you're supposed to be nice." Btw, I'm going off the definition of harassment as "aggressive pressure or initimidation." Harassment need not be a repeated pattern. Sometimes it's a one-off action intended to demean.

As for relationships among team members, our team allows and has students who date, both in-team and cross-team. Our basic rule is "don't act in a way that tells everyone you're a couple."

Originally Posted by MariOlsen

What about mentors hugging students (or students hugging mentors)? I feel like most people would say that mentors ought not to initiate a hug, but what about accepting one? I hug as a form of greeting if I feel comfortable with someone, but some of my mentors refused to let me hug them until I graduated. I understand that hugs may be misinterpreted and thus are probably best avoided, but it still makes me a bit sad.

Our team is very conscious about appropriate mentor contact. Generally, mentors on our team don't do hugs. I did have one student hug me last year after a very emotional competition. It was brief and probably looked terribly awkward (I'm not a hugger to start) but, given the circumstances, I just rolled with it.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by MariOlsen

What about mentors hugging students (or students hugging mentors)? I feel like most people would say that mentors ought not to initiate a hug, but what about accepting one? I hug as a form of greeting if I feel comfortable with someone, but some of my mentors refused to let me hug them until I graduated. I understand that hugs may be misinterpreted and thus are probably best avoided, but it still makes me a bit sad.

As a general rule I avoid it as much as possible with current students. I do make exceptions for special circumstances - dean's list finalists/winners get a hug when they get their award, and everyone on the team gave me a hug when I got WFFA (and according to one of my students, I looked super awkward the whole time). Returning graduates usually get a hug when I see them - always initiated by them, but understandable when you don't see someone for the better part of a year.

Let's keep in mind with this thread that, while I'm certainly aware there are certainly plenty of problems caused by guys, some of them are caused by girls reactions. Some girls are naturally more open and outgoing, which guys can interpret as "flirty" if they wish, and so how a girl interacts with a guy may unintentionally lead him on. I had one incident with a student this year that reportedly have a guy her number at a competition. When asked about it, she said she gave him a wrong number when he asked for it(yes, we've all seen that on TV). I took the time to explain to her how that sends the wrong message - it encourages his attention for the rest of the event, and lets him down hard later on when he realizes. It's much more appropriate and professional to say "i'm sorry, but I'm not interested", or if you refer, "i'm sorry, but that's against team rules" (which it actually is for our team). Be direct, be honest, and be professional about it. There's no need to make a big scene or to put up with unwanted attention (in either direction) because you don't want to address the issue.

[Karthik]

The sooner we stop focusing on teaching girls how to deal with harassment from boys, and start teaching boys not to harass girls, the better. The onus needs to be on the perpetrators of harassment, not the victims.

And yes, what you might call "normal teenage behaviour" or "creepiness", I call harassment.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by AmiableVariable

I agree that there is no inherent harm in flirting where boundaries are respected. I do have a problem with a blanket statement of "this is life" and "this is natural "in a thread where the topic of discussion trends towards harassment and how to deal with it to make for a more welcoming environment. Even if you intended to refer to indubitably clean mutual flirting, the context and phrasing made it sound much worse. Ditto for indirectly attributing these problems on girls lack of interest in the field. Neither make for a more welcoming environment.

It looks like Sperkowski has been misinterpreted by a lot of people. He is being pragmatic, not fatalistic. Meaning he appears think that this is an inevitable consequence of life, not that we should be doing nothing. The point of that being that perhaps there needs to be understanding of both sides, and a measured response. This was because the thread had already deviated from the original harassment angle, and strayed into territory where someone said to embarrass people making you feel uncomfortable. Furthermore, we are also not saying that people who are uncomfortable should not speak up. As far as what I believe and have already said, I believe quite the opposite. What I believe, and what people misinterpret as fatalism, is that we shouldn't be shaming awkward teenagers when they are awkward.

As someone who shares Sperkowski's viewpoint, I can say that harassment is totally unacceptable, and certainly NOT what I (and probably he was) am talking about when we talk about "that this is natural." He is referring to uncomfortable situations that arise because someone is simply awkward by nature.

To deviate slightly, I find the rules banning relationships to be quite ill conceived. Not only is this unenforceable (you need to get parents involved, and I don't think you are going to have too much success even with that), but it is a direct discouragement of healthy relationships. I don't like teams being embroiled in drama as much as the next person, but do you honestly think that forcing high schoolers to suppress their hormones (assuming they just don't go behind everyone's back) will work?

[Madison]

One way we might help to make STEM a better place for women is to stop telling them they're wrong when they share their experiences and perspective.

[jweston]

One thing I am a bit troubled by is how much of this behavior goes on either undetected by mentors or not heard about until long after it happened. You try to be as watchful as you can but at a competition with 2-3 dozen students in various locations, it's impossible to be omniscient.

Last week, I learned of harassment of girls on our team by members of another team which happened last year during Worlds. No one on our team ever said anything about it to a mentor until last week. The only reason it came up now was because we had another similar incident recently which mentors were aware of. It was quite unsettling.

[Katie_UPS]

Its very hard as a female to be involved in these conversations because even though the experiences and insights relevant are those of my fellow ladies, our posts are either ignored or argued against.

If you want to help women in STEM, start by listening to women in STEM and not arguing against what they say. If a girl says someone creeped her out, don't argue that it wasn't creepy.

and of course as I had this sitting in my drafts, Madison posts the same thing

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Unless a member goes above normal social limits IE touching the said member in an inappropriate way, stalking said member, or continuously making a member uncomfortable mentors getting involved especially older ones will mostly make the situation worse embarrassing both parties involved.

If a student is not comfortable taking care of the situation themselves, they have every right to ask a mentor for help. Like Amanda said, "[A mentor would] rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event."

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

Characterizing awkward situations as 'seriously disturbing' is a gross overreaction, and moves shame from the victim to the offender. What I want is no one to feel shame while coming to an understanding.

The victim should never ever feel ashamed. I know you are not implying that in any scenario, the person receiving unwanted advances should feel like that have done something wrong.

If A made B uncomfortable, its completely acceptable for A to feel shame. It's a great tool for learning when one did something not-good and should avoid doing that in the future.

You are lumping every possible awkward situation 'seriously disturbing,' and that they are not meant to be trivialized. Just because I think that there are worse things in the world than a boy unable to properly gauge a situation doesn't mean I trivialize sexual abuse. In fact, lumping in awkwardness is what, by definition, trivializes abuse.

Why are we down-grading creepy behavior to "awkwardness." The original anecdote was "I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition."

You don't "physically hide" from awkwardness. Why are we excusing creepy/inappropriate behavior and calling it "awkwardness". I have worked with students who needed guidance on how to interact with humans, I get that there can be awkward kids. But when someone does something wrong we shouldn't be brushing it off, we should be correcting them with "whoa, [person], that was wrong."

Originally Posted by jweston

One of the things that makes this so difficult is one person's awkward flirting is another's persistent harassment.

This isn't difficult. If a student is feeling harassed, they should have every right to NOT be harassed and the awkward flirting should stop.

Originally Posted by AmiableVariable

If I feel that the level of harassment/ boundary issues is higher in engineering than my general life (which it most definitely is), and those in the field insist that this is natural, and just part of life in engineering, why on earth would I be willing to put in the effort to be rewarded with a hazardous and emotionally draining environment? It takes a very high level of interest to be willing to deal with that on a regular basis. Have you ever had to consider that by working in a STEM field, you will statistically be more likely to be harassed and discriminated against? Because that in itself is a significant deterrent, without the issue being brushed aside. There are reasons why girls tend to show less interest.

How do we make STEM a better place for women? By supporting women who say "something made me uncomfortable" instead of saying "deal with it." Because saying "deal with it" or making excuses for it, as AmiableVariable pointed out, does not help anybody.

A lot of posters who are getting defensive make me think that they maybe, at one point in time, participated in "creepy" behavior. Insisting that the behavior is question is not "creepy" but instead "awkward" or "misguided," is not helping anyone. Instead of excusing creepy behavior or debating what behavior is creepy, we should guide those "misguided, awkward" students so that instead of coming across as creepy, they come across as normal humans who can interact with other humans.

If a person is uncomfortable with another person's actions, ask how you can help correct the situation. Maybe they just want moral support but can deal with the person themselves or maybe they will want someone step in and do the talking. Ask and respect their answer.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by Taylor

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

This doesn't really work.

Full disclosure: I'm a MTF Transgender person, and have been open about it for almost a year now. This year, when it came to room arrangements, I was left with an interesting predicament.

Who did I want to stay with? A friend of mine, who happens to be a girl and has helped me greatly through my transition and life in general.

Could I stay with her? No, because I wasn't biologically the same gender as her.
Could I stay with the boys, like last year? No, because I'm a girl.
Could I stay with the mentors maybe? No, because I'm under 18.

So what was left? Well, staying in a room on my own. For 5 nights, in a 2 person room all to myself.

I had a chat with people from the higher up administration and legal departments of our educational institution. In essence, what they told me was:
"You can't change who you are. Just because you don't fit into one of our boxes doesn't mean we're going to force you to."

The Australian department of education's laws defining room arrangements on school trips has a good way of dealing with situations like mine, and I am fairly certain the same system is employed in the US, although you will have to do some research of your own to confirm that. Basically, you can stay with pretty much anyone in your rough age group (i.e. both under 18, or one under 18 and one above 18 if you've known each other closely for more than 2 years) as long as the following conditions are met:

1) All people(s) staying together agree to it
2) All people(s) staying together's parents agree to it
3) Parents agree on the rules that they set out (i.e. no exposure, sleep in different beds, whatever they deem necessary)
4) Students agree to follow these rules and know that if any of them are broken, what the consequences are.
5) None of it is illegal

Ultimately, parents and legal guardians have the final say as long as an agreement is met.

Because of this, I was able to stay with my friend. Everything was fine, we were both happy, and no one was inconvenienced in the slightest.

As soon as you say "well, let's just say it's for liability, they'll understand", you're forcing them to fit into your boxes, which can be extremely damaging to students who don't really fit in the pink or blue boxes, or who desire to fit into the opposite. I'd suggest looking into the actual laws in your country regarding this, because I can promise that if you take the time out to do it, you'll be actively improving the life and confidence of your students, which is what being a mentor is all about.

EDIT: Just to cover all my bases, just remember that this is me sharing my experience. By no means should you take legal advice from me, make sure to do your own research just in case.

[indieFan]

I perceive myself to be socially awkward in many situations, particularly when it comes to dealing with men. (I'm well over 18.) I am currently working to change this with a therapist.

My question is, has anyone/team ever had a meeting with the entire team and discussed what behaviors a male will engage in and how the females will respond and vice-versa? We laugh at comedies like Two and a Half Men when a character is hitting on someone, but do we ever talk about it and how it actually affects someone? Perhaps this is how we start to break down the "creepiness" factor.

As for personal experience, I was working at my day job and approached by someone. I declined his invitation to do an activity together. Several months later, I was approached again to do another activity. I again declined. This time, I also spoke to my team lead who spoke to my manager. The mere fact that I was uncomfortable with this person and it was two events over a several month period meant that HR got involved. It was not my choice to have HR involved, I just wanted to know how to handle it.

Males and females need to understand there are consequences to every action, regardless if it's the one they want to happen. The only question becomes what the consequences will be.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

The victim should never ever feel ashamed. I know you are not implying that in any scenario, the person receiving unwanted advances should feel like that have done something wrong.

If A made B uncomfortable, its completely acceptable for A to feel shame. It's a great tool for learning when one did something not-good and should avoid doing that in the future.

Perhaps I should be more clear, as you seem to cherry pick my wording.
The responsible person should be held accountable to their actions proportionally. when Amanda posted, she lumped every uncomfortable interaction with the term "seriously disturbing." When I pointed out that shaming a boy who is not good with girls as "seriously disturbing" is a poor exercise of judgement, it seems you took it as no-one should feel shame, period. That is not what I intended.
In case you didn't see my previous post, I had specifically laid out that Sperkowski and I both say that people should be accountable. We also are pointing to the trend of people within this thread equivocating social awkwardness to harassment.

Why are we down-grading creepy behavior to "awkwardness." The original anecdote was "I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition."

We did not. Other people (with your presumptive point of view) did this merely a few posts in. How many times must I point this out?

This isn't difficult. If a student is feeling harassed, they should have every right to NOT be harassed and the awkward flirting should stop.

Correct. We have been saying that.

A lot of posters who are getting defensive make me think that they maybe, at one point in time, participated in "creepy" behavior. Insisting that the behavior is question is not "creepy" but instead "awkward" or "misguided," is not helping anyone.

This is a personal attack. Please don't try to discredit me by implying that I am guilty of being a creep.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Taylor

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

Maybe the courts in Indiana are different. Here in California this would be recognized as the terrible, regressive, incorrect excuse it is.

[Pauline Tasci]

The way to change a culture is to stop treating the"creeps" as they're just being boys and start treating it like an issue.
Start treating it like harassment, and something that should never be taken lightly.

The worse part of this day and age is that this no longer just happens at competitions, with things like facebook and twitter people add eachother from all over the FIRST community and it's even easier to stalk someone at competition and harass people via messages.

This is harassment, not "boys will be boys."

(with that the same can happen with girls creeping on boys)

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Maybe the courts in Indiana are different. Here in California this would be recognized as the terrible, regressive, incorrect excuse it is.

You are correct in every way.