Making STEM a better place for women

[jweston]

Originally Posted by jweston

One of the things that makes this so difficult is one person's awkward flirting is another's persistent harassment.

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

This isn't difficult. If a student is feeling harassed, they should have every right to NOT be harassed and the awkward flirting should stop.

Absolutely correct. To clarify, the "this" that's so difficult I was referring to is having this conversation about the topic, not whether or not an action constitutes harassment. Determining harassment only becomes a bit murky when girls don't feel free to object to advances in the clearest way possible. That forces the responsibility onto the actor to be absolutely certain that their actions are welcome and appreciated with 100% enthusiasm. The way to fix this is to change our culture so girls feel completely secure to assert themselves whenever and however they want within the same bounds we'd apply to boys.

There's a rightful stigma associated with harassment. The problem is this stigma can make people defensive since 1) they didn't mean any harm and 2) all of us internalize a lot messages throughout our lives that signal on some level that this behavior is ok as long as you didn't mean harm. People often do the things that they shouldn't when they aren't thinking. That includes creeping. Not that intent (or lack thereof) makes those actions ok at all, but it should inform how the person is corrected.

It's really a lot like if you hit my thumb with a hammer. It may have been an accident but that doesn't make it ok. Why you hit my thumb with a hammer matters a lot to how the situation should be handled in order to ensure it doesn't happen again. A girl who has been conditioned to "be nice" (just go along with it) is like one who has been taught to never yell or scream, even when hit with a hammer. It makes it that much harder for the person with the hammer to realize they've made contact.

My goal is to help people learn how to respect boundaries, not to cast them as vicitms or predators. It gets messy because there are cultural values that tell us guys should be praised for romancing girls and girls should be passive. Those values are one of the most harmful things we're all up against.

[alicen]

Just popped into this, to make a minor note. It's not always the students, and it's not always about physical attraction/flirting or whatever.

In my job in the real world, I am the only woman at my company and have had absolutely zero problems. In my last job, I was the only woman in the engineering department - again with zero problems. On my team in high school I had zero problems with teammates even though I was the only active female.

I had exactly one issue in the entire time I've been involved in FIRST. I had a mentor (he was the teacher sponsor) who chose to harass me and degrade me and my work, telling me that I was causing the team to fail and that I would ruin the team. At the time, we had very few active members and nobody else working on the CAD/mechanical stuff other than me.

I look back on this now and realize I should have brought this to the administration instead of just the other two mentors (non teachers), but I'm also thankful that that's the worst I've experienced when I know other people who have been through much, much worse.

I don't think there's any one thing that will fix/solve the problems that women face in STEM, and I don't believe that things will get better fast. However, with each group of kids that grows up things are getting better and better, so I think that we need to look at the kids that are growing up and learn something about tolerance and equality from them

[popnbrown]

Ok..lots of back and forth. So I’m going to attempt to mediate. It’s evident y’all are discussing two things. Universally agreed “creepy” behavior, and normal “awkward” teenage interactions.
From my perspective (which is biased), JBotAlan raised this thread to discuss “creepy” behavior

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

People of ChiefDelphi, On one of the teams I have mentored, I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition.

To which it was responded:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Lets keep in mind that this is natural

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

As far as I can tell, he was saying that hormonal boys will act stupidly, and that this is natural.

Those posts, did in effect try to lump in “creepy” behavior with “awkward” teenage interactions, which effectively did trivialize the “Creepy” behavior, eliciting this post:

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

- trivializing seriously disturbing behavior toward women

I think I agree with Amanda here, although I can see how she was a little aggressive (rightfully so). The two posts above hers kind of de-value the “creepy” behavior that girls say they experience by implying what JBotAlan said may not be creepy. Whether intentional or not, approaching what OP was saying and initially responding with “not all behavior is harassment” as below:

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

We also are pointing to the trend of people within this thread equivocating social awkwardness to harassment.

is not a good initial response because (again whether intentional or not) you’re effectively saying “between-the-lines” that what OP’s student and other girls/women are saying may not be justifiably “creepy”. That’s not being said point-blank, not written out in words, but jumping on the defense “not all behavior is creepy” implies that.

Katie gives good advice here:

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

If you want to help women in STEM, start by listening to women in STEM and not arguing against what they say. If a girl says someone creeped her out, don't argue that it wasn't creepy.

There should never have been a discussion of “what is creepy” and “what is not”. We are here looking for solutions to “creepy” behavior. If someone comes to us and says something is a problem for him/her....it's a problem.

[Josh Fox]

Originally Posted by bombodail

I think the best thing to do would be to treat it no different than if the guy was creeping out another guy. Pull the perpetrator aside and say human xyz does not appreciate such behavior, and there maybe further consequences if it persists. I don't think there is a need to bring discriminatory traits into this. Of course you may also wish to warn the perpetrator that the legal system is heavily stacked against him, if this escalates.

I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

If this is genuinely how you see the world, I implore you, as kindly and as urgently as is possible, to do some research and read stories of those who have to work within this "stacked system" in an attempt to bring the person who wronged them to justice, give themselves peace of mind, or even just live their lives harassment free.

Sure, ideally we'd only have conversations about not harassing other people regardless of gender, but the facts are such that women are incredibly disproportionately affected as the victims of harassment/DV/SA.

This view is simply untrue at best, and at worst a very dangerous one to hold and pass on to or share with others.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by jweston

The way to fix this is to change our culture so girls feel completely secure to assert themselves whenever and however they want within the same bounds we'd apply to boys.

You're correct that that is the change we need, but I think your approach is a little mis-guided. I believe the approach should be:

Originally Posted by Karthik

The sooner we stop focusing on teaching girls how to deal with harassment from boys, and start teaching boys not to harass girls, the better. The onus needs to be on the perpetrators of harassment, not the victims.

Girls will feel secure when the environment for them is secure.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

Ok..lots of back and forth. So I’m going to attempt to mediate. It’s evident y’all are discussing two things. Universally agreed “creepy” behavior, and normal “awkward” teenage interactions.
From my perspective (which is biased), JBotAlan raised this thread to discuss “creepy” behavior

To which it was responded:


Those posts, did in effect try to lump in “creepy” behavior with “awkward” teenage interactions, which effectively did trivialize the “Creepy” behavior, eliciting this post:

I think I agree with Amanda here, although I can see how she was a little aggressive (rightfully so). The two posts above hers kind of de-value the “creepy” behavior that girls say they experience by saying what JBotAlan said may not be creepy. Whether intentional or not, approaching what OP was saying and initially responding by saying “not all behavior is harassment” as below:

is not a good initial response because (again whether intentional or not) you’re effectively saying “between-the-lines” that what OP’s student and other girls/women are saying may not be justifiably “creepy”. That’s not being said point-blank, not written out in words, but jumping on the defense “not all behavior is creepy” implies that.
Katie gives good advice here:

There should never have been a discussion of “what is creepy” and “what is not”. We are here looking for solutions to “creepy” behavior.

At this point, I am being forced to defend my and Sperkowski's honor if you will. Rhetoric labeling us as creepy and damaging have been leveled at us personally, so it's increasingly aggravating defending this position.
Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. I've yet to actually have anyone point to me where we said that they should not. Maybe there was an unintentional implication somewhere, but let me reassure you, that is not what either of us meant.

[Alyssa]

While I am just seeing this thread now, even after just skimming it briefly I am already concerned about a couple specific things.

Firstly, the notion that "boys will be boys" or that it is "natural" for young men to harass young women with the only excuse being "hormones" is completely outdated and in my opinion, disgusting. It only reinforces the mentality that young men cannot act graciously or respectfully and that they have every right to harass young women. On many occasions I've been told by adults in my life, not necessarily in FRC, that the problems I'm experiencing with a "creepy" guy are natural and not their problem because "boys will be boys." It is up to adults, mentors, older students as well as the boys themselves to dispel this notion.

And secondly,

Originally Posted by bombodail

I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

I won't even go into how poorly backed up this statement is, how sexist, inflammatory and flat out incorrect...I could name 20 cases right now where the exact opposite of what you are saying has happened.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by indieFan

My question is, has anyone/team ever had a meeting with the entire team and discussed what behaviors a male will engage in and how the females will respond and vice-versa? We laugh at comedies like Two and a Half Men when a character is hitting on someone, but do we ever talk about it and how it actually affects someone? Perhaps this is how we start to break down the "creepiness" factor.

No.

We've had discussions as an entire team, on making sure your actions, and words are respectful of others. If you don't know if they like hugging or not, don't hug. We kind of talked a lot more about words but I think our discussion applied equally. This was initiated by me.

I've had smaller group discussions and even one-on-ones regarding that which was generally student initiated, or if I knew about an issue.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

At this point, I am being forced to defend my and Sperkowski's honor if you will.

If anyone is in the mood for a slight laugh, this made me chuckle a bit as to its relevance to the theme this year.

I agree that it wasn't appropriate for Katie to imply that.

Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable.

You did not not say that (or at least I didn't see it -- too many negatives, I'm trying to say I agree with you).

But the disagreement is what should we do when girls report behavior that makes them uncomfortable which is essentially OP?

[Alyssa]

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. .

THIS:

Originally Posted by bombodail

I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

is exactly why girls do not feel comfortable reporting or talking about behavior that makes them uncomfortable. Women will start speaking up about things that they experience when they feel as if they will be supported when they do so.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

If anyone is in the mood for a slight laugh, this made me chuckle a bit as to its relevance to the theme this year.

I agree that it wasn't appropriate for Katie to imply that.



You did not not say that (or at least I didn't see it -- too many negatives, I'm trying to say I agree with you).

But the disagreement is what should we do when girls report behavior that makes them uncomfortable which is essentially OP?

I said in some mountain of text. I try to bold things like that to make my position unambiguous, but it seems I've failed.

There is no disagreement when girls should report. Always talk about what makes you uncomfortable. Allow a balanced look to be taken at the situation and understandings be made.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

....

I think you may have misread my question. What should WE do when girls report "creepy" behavior?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by paunatime

The way to change a culture is to stop treating the"creeps" as they're just being boys and start treating it like an issue.
Start treating it like harassment, and something that should never be taken lightly.

The worse part of this day and age is that this no longer just happens at competitions, with things like facebook and twitter people add eachother from all over the FIRST community and it's even easier to stalk someone at competition and harass people via messages.

This is harassment, not "boys will be boys."

(with that the same can happen with girls creeping on boys)

preach

I am unaware of inter-team student interactions being something covered in FIRST's YPP. If it is, it is not something that is well published or something I remember having an offer to train on. On 422 (like most teams, I hope and assume) all team members sign a code of conduct (including mentors, but ours is different). Members who slip up in treating people like people and solving issues in a constructive way face remedial action for most first offenses, and at least suspension on a second offense.

Cards on the table, there have been instances where team members have exhibited actions similar to and far more extreme than ones in this thread, and if corrective action did not remedy the issue, they were summarily disappeared.

However, as far as I am aware the tools to help these issues outside of my team are either what I believe to be inadequate or simply nonexistent. It is a serious problem we have been and will continue to looking to solve in a constructive and thorough way in the coming year.

[nerdrock101]

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. I've yet to actually have anyone point to me where we said that they should not. Maybe there was an unintentional implication somewhere, but let me reassure you, that is not what either of us meant.

The problem is that when we are having a discussion of events that have been considered harrasment and the usual "boys will be boys" excuse is brought up, or complaints of blurring the line between social awkwardness and harrassment downplays the real problems we're facing. Are there awkward situations in this world related to maturing at that age? Yes. But that's not what we're trying to address. It's like talking about famine and someone chimes in to complain that we're mistaking it with hunger. They are two separate things.

If you keep having conversations about harrasment you've faced sidetracked into "but was it really that bad" all your life, you might understand why more of us don't come forward to talk about it.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

I think you may have misread my question. What should WE do when girls report "creepy" behavior?

Talk to both involved parties and try to understand both points of view. Anything beyond that is impossible to perscribe on a forum.