Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

This isn't really a student problem. It's a "people who say things that aren't productive problem" It's just that in general students have less maturity and are more prone to saying things that shouldn't really be said.

I mean... Welcome to real life. Your actions have consequences and you aren't a child anymore. These things happen in real life too. You should care about what effect the words that come out of your mouth. You shouldn't care so much that you avoid productive discussion in fear of saying something incorrect.

Ultimately like others have said, it's just dots. If you are here on CD to have lots of dots on a screen or be famous within the FIRST community, I think you are here for the wrong reasons.

Originally Posted by Rachel Lim

I don't think it's hard to be a student on CD.

I think it's hard to communicate clearly, especially on the internet.

How you say something is often just as important as what you say.

Just curious do not take this the wrong way. Were either you active on chiefdelphi as students. I should say I am not the only one with these feelings I have had over 10 students say the same thing.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Just curious do not take this the wrong way. Were either you active on chiefdelphi as students. I should say I am not the only one with these feelings I have had over 10 students say the same thing.

Yes. I was.

Like I said, many students don't really have the maturity to post productive/have constructive conversations. (even though some of them may think that they do)

Honestly that goes for mentors/adults too. I am aware of many students who felt 100% comfortable on CD.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

Yes. I was.

Like I said, many students don't really have the maturity to post productive/have constructive conversations. (even though some of them may think that they do)

Honestly that goes for mentors/adults too. I am aware of many students who felt 100% comfortable on CD.

Again don't take this the wrong way but I notice you didnt start a thread until 2013 once you were already a mentor. Was the reason for this?

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Again don't take this the wrong way but I notice you didnt start a thread until 2013 once you were already a mentor. Was the reason for this?

I was a student in 2013. Also you don't need to make threads to be an active person on CD. Sometimes I think we even have too many repeat/nonsensical/boring ones.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

I was a student in 2013. Also you don't need to make threads to be an active person on CD. Sometimes I think we even have too many repeat/nonsensical/boring ones.

Ah I see where I missed some stuff. I mistook you switching teams with switching roles.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Again don't take this the wrong way but I notice you didnt start a thread until 2013 once you were already a mentor. Was the reason for this?

I'd like to provide some insight on this too - I've started 11 threads since I joined in 2007. Three christmas card exchanges, 4 WAIs, 2 other CD-Media threads, and an article from CNN. I don't feel the need to start threads because my questions can usually be answered by the rulebook, Q&A, Google, or a friend who's a better-suited engineer than I am (I'm a materials engineer who does primarily mechanical work in FRC - physics isn't my thing). I don't CAD (anymore) or design gearboxes/drivetrains/etc or program or think about intricate strategic scenarios or enjoy stat analysis, which is what most of the technical discussion on here is about. Most of my posts as a student were caption contest entries, occasional event discussion, and non-technical discussion (in threads like this). For me, when I was a student and still now as a mentor, it has nothing to do with how I feel I the community will receive my posts, I just don't have anything to discuss/ask. But, I do read constantly, use the search function frequently, and have learned A LOT over the past several years.

I see many students posting regularly with confidence. I also have spoken with many students off-line about how they just read and don't post, because they're worried they'll be met with aggression (some stating that they're worried it will reflect poorly on their team). CD has changed a lot since I was a student, so I can only comment based on what I've heard expressed by current students.

When I was doing this year's christmas card exchange, I had a PM discussion with a student, I suggested that one of us post about the discussion in the thread, and they responded that they would rather I make the post because "You're a mentor so you're less likely to be yelled at by stricter members". That is an exact quote.

That is NOT the kind of environment we want here, and I think that this is the perception a lot of students have of CD (hence, this thread). I can't blame students for not wanting to be yelled at by adults. However, outside of the controversial threads, I think we do a pretty good job of being courteous and respectful of each other. Spelling mistakes, etc. aren't nit-picked as much, emotions aren't flying, help is provided where needed and questions are answered. Unfortunately, the controversial topics are the ones that tend to bring out the argumentative side in a lot of people, and those are the threads that get the most visibility. I think is primarily what gives CD a bad rap. I think that the other contributor is that I see student posts ignored in large discussion threads, which can give off an impression of exclusivity - that CD is just for mentors who know what they're talking about. A lot of posts get ignored and not responded to for a lot of reasons (post doesn't lead itself to further discussion, not actually relevant, etc), but if it's a repeated experience, I can see how students would feel unwelcome.

This also isn't limited to just students - I've spoken with a lot of mentors who feel the same way as the students.

[dtengineering]

<Chuckle>

Well, this thread has filled up quickly!

When I got involved with FRC I thought it was about encouraging more young people to explore a future in Science, Technology and Engineering related fields.

And yeah, it kind of is... but it is also about encouraging young people who have already decided to go into those fields to improve their communication and teamwork skills. In a lot of ways, I've found this second point to be more meaningful.

A very important thing to learn about communications is that when a thought is expressed in writing that it is both very permanent, and also independent from the intent with which it was said. It lacks the context of the wry tone of voice, the frustrated expression... all of those cues that say, "even though I'm saying this thing, I don't really mean it in a negative way".

So it is very, very important when writing in a public space (it matters anywhere, but particularly in a public space) to be very clear about what you are writing and ensure that it expresses your best intent.

Expressing oneself clearly and professionally in writing is just as important a skill as being able to use CAD, or run a mill. In fact, it is probably more important in the long run.

CD, being popular with a number of experienced mentors, does a good job of encouraging clear, professional, communication. That doesn't make it hard to be a student... but it does make it hard to be careless, or lazy in one's approach to communication.

And that is an important part of the competitive robotics learning experience.

Jason

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

A very important thing to learn about communications is that when a thought is expressed in writing that it is both very permanent, and also independent from the intent with which it was said. It lacks the context of the wry tone of voice, the frustrated expression... all of those cues that say, "even though I'm saying this thing, I don't really mean it in a negative way".

So it is very, very important when writing in a public space (it matters anywhere, but particularly in a public space) to be very clear about what you are writing and ensure that it expresses your best intent.

Expressing oneself clearly and professionally in writing is just as important a skill as being able to use CAD, or run a mill. In fact, it is probably more important in the long run.

CD, being popular with a number of experienced mentors, does a good job of encouraging clear, professional, communication. That doesn't make it hard to be a student... but it does make it hard to be careless, or lazy in one's approach to communication.

And that is an important part of the competitive robotics learning experience.

Jason

^This.

EVERY online forum has its share of trolls & snipers. (see:Reddit)

CD has more provenance than most, however, we see the same dynamic here that plays out within our teams where mentors may dominate the tenor & direction of "discussions", & "conversations".

[Ozuru]

I'm not really sure what the original post was about. It sounds like you made a thread praising the redeeming powers of the reputation plugin that the forum has.

In reply to your title, if you need the validation of everyone around you, being anyone involved in any arena of discussion will be hard. It's a forum on the internet. Some people aren't going to like what you say and others are going to be rude about it.

People also say stupid things. If this thread was started in reference to the replies you got for this post, it surely wasn't personal. If you say something stupid and a mentor calls you out on it, it doesn't mean that mentors on Chief Delphi are prejudice against students. It just means you made a dumb comment.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Ozuru

I'm not really sure what the original post was about. It sounds like you made a thread praising the redeeming powers of the reputation plugin that the forum has.

In reply to your title, if you need the validation of everyone around you, being anyone involved in any arena of discussion will be hard. It's a forum on the internet. Some people aren't going to like what you say and others are going to be rude about it.

People also say stupid things. If this thread was started in reference to the replies you got for this post, it surely wasn't personal. If you say something stupid and a mentor calls you out on it, it doesn't mean that mentors on Chief Delphi are prejudice against students. It just means you made a dumb comment.

Actually I did not get flamed too bad for the past. Didn't even get a red dot until after I started this thread.

I still hold to that statement it was just taken out of context.

[pilleya]

From my experiences I don’t think it is particularly hard to be a student on CD, you just need to realise where you are capable of contributing to the discussion effectively and the areas in which you might not be able to.

For me I find I am confident in lots of the technical discussions, about part use, how to make this work etc. But I refrain from some discussions. I find it is really important that if you are going to post something about a contentious issue or something that could be taken differently to how you intended it that you need to be careful. I often type up my posts in MS Word, and will make 2 or 3 revisions before I am comfortable to post it. Even then I might send the post to one of my team mates, to have a read through and check or a mentor if I feel that it is necessary. I made a bad decision in the past, not on CD but in an email. It is very easy to write something you don’t want too, when you are tired, stressed or feel like something has really upset you. It is extremely easy to click send, before realising that you shouldn’t have sent it. I find that it is best to type it up, then maybe leave it until the next morning or a few hours and have a read over it. Maybe someone else might have expressed your view point in a better way, or maybe you’ll realise that it isn’t the best thing to send or post.

[Steven Smith]

In my opinion, CD provides an environment that is different than the normal mentoring of students. The biggest thing is that in my team/community, I am physically looking at a student when I talk to them, so my mind just "goes" to a mentoring type conversation.

On CD, unless it is explicitly stated in the post such that I can't miss it, I honestly don't always check "Team Role" to see if I'm talking to a mentor or student, though I might try to do so more often. Therefore, many students might get feedback as though an adult were talking to an adult, without as much of a filter.

I can see benefits of this for students, as you get into the "real world" and this feedback style will quickly become the norm for you, but I also agree that CD could be considered as less welcoming at times than would be desired, which could keep students from wanting to join.

I will echo the earlier comments that the original post has merit, and though it isn't the first time to be brought up, it is worth discussing the impact of the CD culture on students. You appear to have grown a lot and are contributing in a net positive way to the CD community, both through an increased quality of posts and efforts like your F4 show. You will likely face resistance if you push too hard for "others to change", but you could certainly impact the culture over time by continuing to set an example of how to make the board more welcoming.

Finally, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but for any others reading, I typically consider it proper etiquette to double check with the sender of a PM before posting it to a public audience. It is the equivalent to recording a conversation with someone (off the record), and posting it on YouTube without their permission. It's easy to stave off any questions by noting on the quoted PM that you double checked with the author for permission to repost, as you thought the feedback had value for a wider audience.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I still hold to that statement it was just taken out of context.

This seems like a terrible idea, considering how vague and non-specific the "this" and "life" in your post was. Ignorance to the multitude of meanings does not mean you aren't accountable for them in peoples' minds.

Your real reputation is not a set of dots in the User CP. It is measured by little nuances, such as whether people listen to you rather than constantly interrupt, correct, troll, or otherwise ignore you.

[Rachel Lim]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Just curious do not take this the wrong way. Were either you active on chiefdelphi as students. I should say I am not the only one with these feelings I have had over 10 students say the same thing.

I'm a student.