F4 - Episode 7 (Regionals Vs. Districts)

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

IIRC, the premise of this show is to have students on only, so I doubt this would be the show for that!

Perhaps a recommendation can be sent to FUN.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Yea as Akash said the big premise behind the show is student opinions. This sounds like a topic FUN might touch on though if you ask them.

We will definitely be covering this topic on one of our off-season shows and would be delighted to have Sam as well as a couple other sides of the coin on for guests.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

You've touched on several of my points that I will be making on the Sunday episode, and I totally understand what you mean.

As a student, the individual experience at a competition means a lot to my team and I. The production value displayed at our local regionals helps us get more members, sponsors, and mentors interested because it pushes the "after-school robotics club" motif into the zone of "professional and official varsity sports".

Yes, I haven't been to a district event in my FRC career, but I have been to six regionals, and those six regionals have heavily influenced the way I viewed robotics as a freshman member on 3309.

I notice that you went to the Orange County Regional this year, which happened to be held at Valencia High School. Do you have any photos of the venue/event, or would you explain how you feel that this regional that was held in a High School was more polished an event than a district held in similar venues? I also see that there were 42 teams present, please elaborate how this event was better than a district that again has similar number of teams.

I am not attacking you personally just trying to understand your point of view, when it seems you went to a district event this year that was disguised as a regional.

[itsjustjon]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I notice that you went to the Orange County Regional this year, which happened to be held at Valencia High School. Do you have any photos of the venue/event, or would you explain how you feel that this regional that was held in a High School was more polished an event than a district held in similar venues? I also see that there were 42 teams present, please elaborate how this event was better than a district that again has similar number of teams.

I am not attacking you personally just trying to understand your point of view, when it seems you went to a district event this year that was disguised as a regional.

Please understand that the views I hold about the OC Regional are not reflective of my team's views.

The OC Regional, despite being well-run for a 1st year regional, was lacking in comparison to the other regionals 3309 competed at due to the fact that it was held in a high school gym, like many district events. This might seem petty to the average robotics member but it makes a huge difference when you're seeing FRC for the first time, IMO.

The things that negatively set the OC Regional apart from other Regional Events:
- Lack of A/C: This was a big one. The stands were very uncomfortable for the spectators, scouting teams, and VIP that I led around during my time volunteering as Student Ambassador.
- Odd Practice Field Placement: Teams had to access the practice field via a small set of stairs, so you either had to carry your bot up the stairs or use a wheel-chair lift.
- Small aisles between the pits: Pits got very crowded at times and it was tough to move through the aisles.
- Power in the Pits: Pit power was not available on Wednesday Set-up, and the power supplied to the Pit Area.
- Overall Layout: To get from the pits to the field, teams had to walk around the entire gym building. There were only two doors that led to the field, and the closest was reserved for queuing. Other layout issues include the fact that VIP and volunteers had to walk across campus to get to the Volunteer Lounge. Make of that what you will.

The things that set apart the OC Regional from many District Events:
- Official FRC Lighting and Display: I've researched the requirements for Districts and it seems that FIRST doesn't provide district events with the lighting truss for the competition field. This lighting truss A) makes many regionals consistently well-lit (barring any vision camera issues) and B) easier for spectators to see the field. That being said, I do not know what districts typically do besides relying on the venue for lighting.
- Minimum Standards: All FIRST Regionals are held to minimum standards in many, many ways. Here's the link for Regional Standards and here's the link for District Standards. I can't make any comments as to how often the standards for District events are met and exceeded, but the quality standards for regionals set by FRC makes the over-all regional experience consistent. Production value is also maintained, as well.
- Practice Day Robot Unbag vs. 6-Hour Unbag: Again, I don't fully understand the rules of districts. However, based on what I believe I know about the 6-Hour Unbag Rule, Regional Teams get around 12 hours to modify their robot if they choose to not participate in practice matches. This is double what District Teams are given in their shops the day before competition starts.
- Practice Matches: Looking at the documentation for District Events on this page, it seems that there is very little time for practice matches. Could you please actually explain to me how practice matches work at District Events?
- Overall Support from FIRST: Based on my research on FIRST's website, the overall documentation support and quality standards that are provided for Regional Events far exceed the ones for District Events. I think this puts Regionals at an advantage (FIRST should provide Districts with the same support, IMO) and that advantage ensures that Regionals are consistently high in quality.

All of my points have been drawn from research on FIRST's website, so my personal understanding of how Districts are run might be completely different to the way things actually are.

Also, my stance on Regionals v. Districts isn't that Districts are a bad system, but that Districts should not be put in place everywhere and the same goes for Regionals. Despite that fact, I think Regionals have some more pros than District events.

My views on this will be further explained on Sunday's show, as well.

[ATannahill]

I am going to try to address the questions you have and the areas where you state you do not fully know how districts work.

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

The things that set apart the OC Regional from many District Events:
- Official FRC Lighting and Display: I've researched the requirements for Districts and it seems that FIRST doesn't provide district events with the lighting truss for the competition field. This lighting truss A) makes many regionals consistently well-lit (barring any vision camera issues) and B) easier for spectators to see the field. That being said, I do not know what districts typically do besides relying on the venue for lighting.

Most districts I have been to rely on house lighting. These are generally played in high school or university gymnasiums, typically where basketball is played*. When at a basketball game, you expect to see the players and the ball, the lighting available will also light up a full FRC field.

Fun fact: AZ West Regional only used house lighting.

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

- Practice Day Robot Unbag vs. 6-Hour Unbag: Again, I don't fully understand the rules of districts. However, based on what I believe I know about the 6-Hour Unbag Rule, Regional Teams get around 12 hours to modify their robot if they choose to not participate in practice matches. This is double what District Teams are given in their shops the day before competition starts.

Going off the FIM schedule, teams get 8 hours at the event between the doors opening and matches starting. This includes the pit set-up and inspection time, as well as opening ceremonies.

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

- Practice Matches: Looking at the documentation for District Events on this page, it seems that there is very little time for practice matches. Could you please actually explain to me how practice matches work at District Events?

I am again going to talk in regards to FIM, since that is what I know best. Practice matches are available to teams that have passed inspection on Thursday afternoon/evening once the field is set-up. This means that teams that want to practice on the field can. Practice matches are filler line only, i.e. there is no schedule where you are given a specific match.

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

- Overall Support from FIRST: Based on my research on FIRST's website, the overall documentation support and quality standards that are provided for Regional Events far exceed the ones for District Events. I think this puts Regionals at an advantage (FIRST should provide Districts with the same support, IMO) and that advantage ensures that Regionals are consistently high in quality.

I'm not sure what you mean by support from FIRST. The field is not transported by FIRST, that is up to the district (some exceptions exist when a district is borrowing a FIRST field for one week). FIRST in New Hampshire supports the event, technically wise, just as they support a regional, the FTA and other key volunteers can contact FIRST for help if there are any problems related to the field or robot connectivity.

Regionals (and the championship and I believe some district championships) are supported by Show Ready Events, a production company that organizes a large number of conferences and conventions. The SRE representative handles a large amount of back-end logistics which are transferred to a member of the planning committee at a district.

*I use the words generally and typically for a reason, each venue is different.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

- Practice Day Robot Unbag vs. 6-Hour Unbag: Again, I don't fully understand the rules of districts. However, based on what I believe I know about the 6-Hour Unbag Rule, Regional Teams get around 12 hours to modify their robot if they choose to not participate in practice matches. This is double what District Teams are given in their shops the day before competition starts.




My views on this will be further explained on Sunday's show, as well.

I'm only going to address my thoughts on the unbag time because RTG covered the rest.

Having the unbag time at YOUR build facility is far superior than having it in the pits. For the most part teams have access to a better machine shop, materials, hardware, etc at their facility than they do in the pits. Working from your facility means that you don't have to worry about forgetting something critical that could make or brake your event if you forgot it at a traditional regional. There is also less stress in that window as well as you don't have inspectors and others politely hounding you to get inspected.

And like RTG said you get time at your event as well.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I notice that you went to the Orange County Regional this year, which happened to be held at Valencia High School. Do you have any photos of the venue/event, or would you explain how you feel that this regional that was held in a High School was more polished an event than a district held in similar venues? I also see that there were 42 teams present, please elaborate how this event was better than a district that again has similar number of teams.

I am not attacking you personally just trying to understand your point of view, when it seems you went to a district event this year that was disguised as a regional.

I'm interested in Grace's take on it since she attended the Bosie Regional which sort of fell into that District disguised as a Regional category. To be fair it sounds like the Taco Bell arena leans to more of a dual purpose facility since they hold things like concerts there, so they are set up for lighting trusses and other things that make the facility more like a commercial venue than the colleges that we use for District events in the PNW District.

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

The things that set apart the OC Regional from many District Events:
- Official FRC Lighting and Display: I've researched the requirements for Districts and it seems that FIRST doesn't provide district events with the lighting truss for the competition field. This lighting truss A) makes many regionals consistently well-lit (barring any vision camera issues) and B) easier for spectators to see the field. That being said, I do not know what districts typically do besides relying on the venue for lighting.
- Minimum Standards: All FIRST Regionals are held to minimum standards in many, many ways. Here's the link for Regional Standards and here's the link for District Standards. I can't make any comments as to how often the standards for District events are met and exceeded, but the quality standards for regionals set by FRC makes the over-all regional experience consistent. Production value is also maintained, as well.
- Practice Day Robot Unbag vs. 6-Hour Unbag: Again, I don't fully understand the rules of districts. However, based on what I believe I know about the 6-Hour Unbag Rule, Regional Teams get around 12 hours to modify their robot if they choose to not participate in practice matches. This is double what District Teams are given in their shops the day before competition starts.
- Practice Matches: Looking at the documentation for District Events on this page, it seems that there is very little time for practice matches. Could you please actually explain to me how practice matches work at District Events?
- Overall Support from FIRST: Based on my research on FIRST's website, the overall documentation support and quality standards that are provided for Regional Events far exceed the ones for District Events. I think this puts Regionals at an advantage (FIRST should provide Districts with the same support, IMO) and that advantage ensures that Regionals are consistently high in quality.

All of my points have been drawn from research on FIRST's website, so my personal understanding of how Districts are run might be completely different to the way things actually are.

Also, my stance on Regionals v. Districts isn't that Districts are a bad system, but that Districts should not be put in place everywhere and the same goes for Regionals. Despite that fact, I think Regionals have some more pros than District events.

My views on this will be further explained on Sunday's show, as well.

Regarding the lighting trusses FIRST does not supply that per se. That is handled by a 3rd party production company that handles the AV as well.

My take is that I prefer the "lights on" that happens at the District events in our area where all of the venue lighting is on. Having been the mentor on the sidelines in the finals I find it very frustrating trying to find and fix problems in the dark with only a flash light.

The majority of the events that we run District events at just don't have the infrastructure for flying lighting and speakers.

Concerning the unbag time vs time at the event. Yes the typical Regional gives you 12hrs to work on the robot and get it inspected at the event. With a District event you typically get 4 or so hours on day 0 and 2 or so on day 1. So the total time is similar between the Regional and District system. Of course with the District system you have the bonus of doing it at your shop and you can set everything out and get prepared before you open the bag. You can also spread it out over 3 sessions. So I feel that there is more usable time to work on the robot with the District's unbag time. The problem comes in when a team shows up with a robot that needs significant work to pass inspection. Despite all of this I've never been at an event where a robot didn't make its first match, though I understand it has happened in our District. Of course in the Regional system I've seen robots miss their first match too.

For practice matches, I can only speak to how it is done in the PNW. Here we do not normally have the scheduled matches and instead do a mainly first come first served method but teams that have not been on the field get to jump to the head of the line to ensure that they connect to the field and get at least one practice match.

The two docs that you linked are not really comparable as the one for the District event is more of a supplement for site selection and it not intended as the only standards for the event, just different ones more suitable for a smaller event with the knowledge that it will be in a HS or smaller college gym and not in a commercial arena or large college gym.

I can not talk for other Districts but in the PNW we do place a high value on the quality of the AV production. Poke around CD and you'll find many people that say the PNW streams are head and shoulders above those that are managed and produced by a 3rd party company. A number of the Districts that came on line after us actually contacted the PNW District to find out what equipment we use and how we do it. IN went so far as to fly out our equipment and a few personnel for IRI one season so that their people could see it first hand and be trained on how to do it.

We do pride ourselves in making all of our events as consistent as possible, again I can't speak to other areas, but I have to believe that they work very hard to ensure that consistency as well.

[itsjustjon]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

Fun fact: AZ West Regional only used house lighting.

It's definitely possible to pull off a great event without the FRC Truss, and if the venue meets that standards, then that's great. In that case, the venue exceeded the minimum requirements/standards of FRC Regionals. In the case of the OC Regional, and potentially several districts, that is not so. Since FIRST supports regionals with the lighting, almost all regionals can make up for lack of house lighting. Districts have to rely only on their venue for house lighting or any other funds they are able to procure.

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

Going off the FIM schedule, teams get 8 hours at the event between the doors opening and matches starting. This includes the pit set-up and inspection time, as well as opening ceremonies.

I am again going to talk in regards to FIM, since that is what I know best. Practice matches are available to teams that have passed inspection on Thursday afternoon/evening once the field is set-up. This means that teams that want to practice on the field can. Practice matches are filler line only, i.e. there is no schedule where you are given a specific match.

We aren't given a specific schedule, as well. That being said, we are given a larger amount of time to practice on Thursday and do not necessarily require a passed inspection. (I could be incorrect on the inspection point). Also, we do not include pit set-up (as well as other factors) into the total amount of time given on Thursdays because Pit Set-Up occurs on Wednesdays, and Inspection can take place at any point through-out the day (which isn't a requirement to participate in the practice matches).

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

I'm not sure what you mean by support from FIRST. The field is not transported by FIRST, that is up to the district (some exceptions exist when a district is borrowing a FIRST field for one week). FIRST in New Hampshire supports the event, technically wise, just as they support a regional, the FTA and other key volunteers can contact FIRST for help if there are any problems related to the field or robot connectivity.

Regionals (and the championship and I believe some district championships) are supported by Show Ready Events, a production company that organizes a large number of conferences and conventions. The SRE representative handles a large amount of back-end logistics which are transferred to a member of the planning committee at a district.

By support, I am referring to the official documentation and required standards set by FIRST that are (for the most part) necessary to host a Regional Event. It might be a moot point, but I think that its beneficial when FIRST sets standards on regionals to meet an a bare minimum, and that they go into detail on exactly how they prefer their events to be run. I cannot find similar documentation for Districts.

I'm sure the transportation provided by FIRST is a huge benefit that the RPC enjoys, as well.

Also, the fact that Regionals receive professional support from SRE speaks to the standards set by FIRST. I can only assume that SRE supports all Regional Events due to the fact that FIRST has a partnership with SRE to donate light set-ups and such to regional events.

Again, all this will be discussed on Sunday.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I'm only going to address my thoughts on the unbag time because RTG covered the rest.

Having the unbag time at YOUR build facility is far superior than having it in the pits. For the most part teams have access to a better machine shop, materials, hardware, etc at their facility than they do in the pits. Working from your facility means that you don't have to worry about forgetting something critical that could make or brake your event if you forgot it at a traditional regional. There is also less stress in that window as well as you don't have inspectors and others politely hounding you to get inspected.

And like RTG said you get time at your event as well.

I should mention that at a regional you have a practice area available which some teams do not have.

Although, I do agree that unbag time is much better then the time you have at a regional.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by itsjustjon

Also, the fact that Regionals receive professional support from SRE speaks to the standards set by FIRST. I can only assume that SRE supports all Regional Events due to the fact that FIRST has a partnership with SRE to donate light set-ups and such to regional events.

Again, all this will be discussed on Sunday.

One correction SRE does not donate light set ups and such to Regional events. Yes FIRST probably negotiates some good rates because of the volume of events, but the RD is responsible for raising the funds to cover the cost of SRE and often a 3rd party AV company and thus all of the functions that they perform. That cost is not insignificant from my understanding and is one of the cost savings associated with the District system. For DCMP we do use SRE and a 3rd party AV company.

The only significant difference in support that FIRST provides to Regionals that they do not to Districts is the transportation of the field, equipment and consumables. FIRST does cover the game specific elements, game pieces along with shipping those to the District's receiving warehouse along with the FMS and spare parts. The District gets to cover the cost of shipping the FMS and spare parts back to NH for reconfiguration for the next season.

[gcgeobuff]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'm interested in Grace's take on it since she attended the Boise Regional which sort of fell into that District disguised as a Regional category. To be fair it sounds like the Taco Bell arena leans to more of a dual purpose facility since they hold things like concerts there, so they are set up for lighting trusses and other things that make the facility more like a commercial venue than the colleges that we use for District events in the PNW District.

I plan on sharing my thoughts a bit more on my experience on the show, but you are correct. The Taco Bell Arena hosts concerts, and had more of a lighting system than we needed. I do not have much experience with the District events, but from what I understand, our Regional was of a comparative size in regards to amount of teams, but the production was amazing with the facility providing an A/V setup and people filming for the stream.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by gcgeobuff

I plan on sharing my thoughts a bit more on my experience on the show, but you are correct. The Taco Bell Arena hosts concerts, and had more of a lighting system than we needed. I do not have much experience with the District events, but from what I understand, our Regional was of a comparative size in regards to amount of teams, but the production was amazing with the facility providing an A/V setup and people filming for the stream.

At 30 teams the Bosie Regional was the same size as the smallest event held in the PNW district this season. Most of our events were larger though with a number of them at 40 teams.

[Sperkowsky]

We are going live in 15 minutes!

[gcgeobuff]

We are live now at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCwug7gcwik

[Sperkowsky]

Thanks everyone for watching! We felt as this was the best episode yet and was very professional despite talking about a controversial topic. Thanks everyone for watching and also remaining civil.

Here is the new logo as well. Big thanks to my friend Max Gerber who made it despite not even being on an FRC team.

http://i.imgur.com/2t2yncd.png?1
For some odd reason it wont let me embed the picture.

See you guys next week with some Pre CMP previews.

[itsjustjon]

I wanted to thank Sam for having me on the show! It was a lot of fun representing Team 3309 on F4 and the discussion was definitely great, as well.

Loved giving the student perspective on regionals vs. districts.

Thanks again, and I can't wait to watch F4's next episode