Boulder Starvation

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

This is a potentially great strategy for a strong #1 or #2 alliance at a strong event (think 1114 and 2056), but more often than you might expect you'll need three robots playing at least some offense to get both your breach and capture in the elims. Your third robot comes into play more than you think.

I was doing some math earlier, and there may be a point where if you have enough balls controlled, and you have enough of a lead, you may want to stop scoring balls, because it can be mathematically impossible for your opponents to out score you.

However, this appears to be a niche case, because if you have that much of a lead, you're likely to win regardless of what you do at that point.

[Lord Basket]

Originally Posted by Edxu

I would argue that this violates G38's definition of HERDING or TRAPPING, as you're creating a group of boulders in the secret passage with the intention of putting a robot there to guard them.

Here is the exact text of G38 (with my own added emphasis):

ROBOTS may not control more than one (1) BOULDER at any time.
Violation: FOUL per extra BOULDER
Moving or positioning a BOULDER to gain advantage is considered
“control.”

Examples include, but are not limited to:
A. “carrying” (holding BOULDERS inside a ROBOT)
B. “herding” (intentionally pushing or impelling BOULDERS to a desired
location or direction)
C.“trapping” (holding one or more BOULDERS against a FIELD element
in an attempt to shield or guard them)
D. “launching” (shooting BOULDERS into the air, kicking across the
floor, or throwing in a forceful way)
Examples of interaction with BOULDERS that are not “control” include,
but are not limited to:
A. “bulldozing” (inadvertent contact with BOULDERS while in the path of
the ROBOT moving about the FIELD)
B. “deflecting” (being hit by a BOULDER that bounces into or off of a
ROBOT).
If a BOULDER becomes lodged in or on a ROBOT, it will be considered
controlled by the ROBOT. It is important to design your ROBOT so that
it is impossible to inadvertently or unintentionally control more than the
allowed maximum.

G38 doesn't ban herding or trapping; it just states that you may not herd or trap multiple balls at the same time, and I don't think any actions in this strategy would be considered trapping. But whether or not this strategy violates the herding aspect of this strategy is not 100% clear. Herding could be interpreted either to apply only to balls that are being deliberately pushed at a single moment, or it could refer to all the balls which a robot has pushed into the secret passage. I'm pretty sure the first interpretation is the correct one, since it wouldn't make sense for a team that has deliberately pushed a ball at one point in a match to be disallowed from controlling any other balls until that ball has been either scored or been unintentionally moved.

[Paul3161]

This has been an on going talk with my team. We have been discussing the pros and cons regarding this strategy since week one of build. I can see this coming into play when they buff the health of the tower during worlds. Even being able to bring most of the boulders to the opposite alliances courtyard would be pretty effective way of wasting the other alliance time. Even if the opposite alliance traverses through to their side, they still would need to traverse back, only being able to bring 1 boulder at a time. I would really like to see this strategy come into play.

[CVR]

G25 A ROBOT may not attempt to stop or impede the flow of the MATCH in any of the following ways:
A. intentionally tipping over
B. coordinating a blockade of the FIELD with ALLIANCE members
C. blocking GOAL(S) while in contact with its own BATTER using anything outside its
FRAME PERIMETER except its BUMPERS
D. blocking more than one of the opponent’s HUMAN PLAYER STATION openings while not
contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE
E. isolating BOULDERS in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from opponents while not
contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE

G25-E has no bearing on this situation. You are trapping boulders in your own secret passage, not the opponents.

G28 ROBOTS may not control more than one (1) BOULDER at any time.
Violation: FOUL per extra BOULDER
Moving or positioning a BOULDER to gain advantage is considered
“control.”
Examples include, but are not limited to:
A. “carrying” (holding BOULDERS inside a ROBOT)
B. “herding” (intentionally pushing or impelling BOULDERS to a desired
location or direction)
C.“trapping” (holding one or more BOULDERS against a FIELD element
in an attempt to shield or guard them)
D. “launching” (shooting BOULDERS into the air, kicking across the
floor, or throwing in a forceful way)
Examples of interaction with BOULDERS that are not “control” include,
but are not limited to:
A. “bulldozing” (inadvertent contact with BOULDERS while in the path of
the ROBOT moving about the FIELD)
B. “deflecting” (being hit by a BOULDER that bounces into or off of a
ROBOT).
If a BOULDER becomes lodged in or on a ROBOT, it will be considered
controlled by the ROBOT. It is important to design your ROBOT so that
it is impossible to inadvertently or unintentionally control more than the
allowed maximum.

I would argue that G28 outlaws this strategy. I would consider playing defense in your own courtyard against balls in your own secret passage as an example of "trapping boulders against a field element". It is analogous (in the eyes of your opponent) to playing defense on a group of boulders in a corner of the field as they have no other (legal) access point. IIRC, this was clarified in a Q&A as illegal, and a foul per extra boulder (herding in a corner, not herding in SP). Therefore, if I were reffing a match where a defender in the courtyard was actively trying to prevent the opponent from obtaining multiple balls from the defender's secret passage, I would likely call a foul per boulder. IF the defender was an appreciable distance away from the defense-guardrail choke point, I probably wouldn't consider it trapping. Only if they were close to blockading the choke point. There has to be an ability, however small, for the offender to get past the defender (robot and driver skill excluded) However, every event is called differently and your mileage may vary.

----

I might even argue that a team entering the secret passage from the neutral zone to obtain boulders would have a fair argument for a G11 under this scenario. I'm sure it would take a lot of effort to convince the head ref though...

[Jerry Ballard]

We've discussed this topic several time since the reveal of the 2016 game. My conclusion (details below) is that because of the way the game is designed it will be a very rare occurrence.

Let's assume that (1) shooting times (pick-up, aim, shooting accuracy) are similar to 2012 World times (mostly true so far), (2) traversal time across defenses are about 3-4 secs one-way, (3) you have a “feeder” bot that will carry boulders from the neutral zoned across the defense, (3) defense will cause about a 5 sec delay for a shooter (80% of the time), and (4) human players will always keep “hoard” 6 boulders in the tower. These assumptions are my worst case scenario for boulder starvation.

Given those assumptions and assuming that both teams will be trying to score boulders, conditions for boulder starving won't exist more than for a few seconds during the 120 seconds of teleop. Even if the neutral zone is empty, both courtyards will continue to have boulders as long as the shooters continue to shoot.

If one alliance refuses to score into the tower, then there is a possibility that boulder starving will occur but in that case I doubt that is a viable winning strategy.

I have have several of these scenarios coded in SimPy, PM me if you would like to see it.

[percula]

PERCULA CLOWN STRATEGY

One effective way to play Boulder Starvation is to NOT score the boulders in the first 45 seconds of the game but "hide" them (boulders in the opponents Court yard. (you may still want to score auto, as the points are double)

I wonder how many teams can actually make a decision to NOT score the boulder in their bot, and decides to drop the boulder in the opponent's court
yard. (many team will think, it doesn't take too much time to aim and shoot) But if you look at all the games most teams take 1 to 2 seconds to drive closer to the tower or aim. while you can use this time to take MORE boulders from mid field.

Strategically, if all the boulders are located and concentrated in the opponent's court yard, it REDUCES your cycle time, and INCREASES your opponents cycle time right? So during first 45 seconds if all your alliance bots should focus on QUICKLY traversing the outer works and grab as many boulders from mid field and drop them after crossing a defense. it will be to your ADVANTAGE in the 2nd half of the game, no? you will have accumulated most of the boulders in the opponent's court yard.

Since total number of boulders is 18 total, if you figure 9x9 on each side is even, once you have 12x6 (meaning 12+ on the opponent side vs 6- on your side [inside the tower]) you CAN starve your opponent of all the boulders, and they won't be able to score any more boulders. (just don't in-bound the from your tower.)

Since all the boulders are now concentrating in your opponents courtyard, your opponent can ONLY send 1 bot to get the boulder (one at a time, THANK YOU FIRST FOR THIS RULE). and the game now completely FLIPS around, you can play defense on the opponent court yard, you can have 3 bot vs 1 in the opponents courtyard to prevent them getting boulders. WOW HOW DID THE GAME CHANGE?!!?

At this point of the game, 1 of your bots should focus on preventing the opponent's boulder from moving to mid field from the opponent's secret passage, that's should be his primary focus.(to keep the boulders on the opponents side of field; while the other 2 primarily score and/or prevents boulders from being taken by the opponents..

By the time the opponent realized there are no boulders for them to score they have NO CHOICE but to come back into their own courtyard to get boulders, the game is mostly over,(almost CHECK MATE) as you have DRASTICALLY increased their cycle time.

I have yet to see this game strategy play out in any game during 6 weeks of play. I hope this will help some under dogs alliances who can't shoot enough high goals to challenge those power house alliances. Or may this maybe the ULTIMATE game strategy to winning Einstein.

I hope this game play strategy will help some of you who are going to St Louis. Good Luck.

-Percula Clown

[chrisfl]

In the Hartford District event, we employed a strategy where we timed out shooting cycles with a strong shooter on the opposing alliance who fed from the secret passage. We would stay in the courtyard and every time their human player put a ball out, we would steal it and score it. This allowed us to starve the other alliance from scoring while still scoring ourselves.

[dv/dt]

Our team employed a version of this strategy in a qualification match at PNW District Championships. Our intent was to remove all the boulders from the neutral zone into our opponents courtyard. We wanted to have a partner sit at the end of the opponents secret passage to prevent reintroduction of boulders, but that did not work out. We also had our human player try to not roll the boulders into the neutral zone.
We chose this strategy because we were considerably outgunned by our opponent and they had a robot that shot high goals from the outerworks. We also wanted to see how effective it could be. Our robot can cycle pretty fast.
We had some success with this strategy. I think this will be a rare strategy since it requires considerable commitment by each alliance partner. Probably only in eliminations. Trying to convince alliance partners of this strategy is a tall order. Many times we couldn't convince partners of the need for defense and hence there was a 48% capture rate in quals at this event.
I also agree with the suggestion that you should not score the boulders for the first portion of teleop.
Watch the video. I would appreciate any suggestions on how to make this strategy more effective. I expect we will see this strategy at champs elimination rounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxVXLGA4dPI

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by percula

PERCULA CLOWN STRATEGY
...

Wierd name and anonymous account aside, this is what I call the "Boulder Bomb", as a tribute to the A-Bomb in 2006. Slight difference though - no scoring happens until the last 45 seconds. I didn't get to see any of this weeks' games, so I don't know if it was even a 'thing' though. Here are some pros/cons/errata:

• The defender, if present, becomes totally useless except for about 10 seconds. The defender better have a good intake
• All 3 robots on the alliance are effectively playing defense for a full minute and change
• If the alliance preps to score 3 balls at once concurrently, the opponents better not have more than 3 balls behind the glass towards the end of the match
• Has the potential to start a vicious cycle in the endgame of secret passage->high goal shots that more than few robots can pull off with speed (given the robot touching carpet in the courtyard rule)
• Negates the need for a scaling bot since the robots are focused on scoring boulder in the end game, but robots like 33 (super fast scale) and 610 (scale + score) will still benefit from scaling
• Higher % chance of effectiveness if the tower strength is increased since, if executed well, it reduces the chances of opponents' full capture
  
• Plays well with a variety of robots on the alliance (i.e. low goal robots with great intakes will definitely have a place in this strategy) which could be crucial for high seeded captains or for qualifications where the stats on the alliances are both high and very similar
• Is a HUGE risk if the opposing alliance can out-maneuver in the first 30 seconds
• Autonomous tower scoring conflicts with this strategy

[MOE365Driver]

We did this up at Westown during match Q56 because we were against two powerhouse teams (1640 and 1143). It ended up working in the end. We won 102-99. What we did is after auto we grabbed a ball from the center and went to go shoot before any defense came, and mean while, our two alliance partners took balls and put them in our own secret passage. After this we had someone sit there and guard them so nobody could grab them, except from us with access from the neutral zone. This was a very interesting match. But if you don't do this correctly, you could potentially let the other alliance have about 6 free boulders.

MOE 365 Driver for Stronghold.

[logank013]

The closest thing I've seen to this was at IN DCMP. In a few matches, teams on the same alliance would cross the defense in auto, spit it out, go into the neutral zone, go back into the courtyard, spit it out, go into the neutral zone, go back into the courtyard, then proceed to shoot the 9 boulders (- however many were made in auto) in their courtyard at once. I saw it a lot more with 6 boulders (spits out boulders into courtyard after auto and then goes to neutral zone to get boulder once). Does this make sense the way I worded it? It was basically a boulder fight at the beginning of a match.

[Nyxyxylyth]

Here's the opposite of Starvation - I was quite impressed by this force-feeding in the last few seconds of this MSC quarterfinal. 1718 enters the secret passage to try and get one more score in the last 20 seconds, and the opposing human player "helps them out" by rapidly unloading balls behind them - preventing 1718 from getting back and completing the capture.

https://youtu.be/WYKOsGtXaVk?t=2m6s

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by logank013

The closest thing I've seen to this was at IN DCMP. In a few matches, teams on the same alliance would cross the defense in auto, spit it out, go into the neutral zone, go back into the courtyard, spit it out, go into the neutral zone, go back into the courtyard, then proceed to shoot the 9 boulders (- however many were made in auto) in their courtyard at once. I saw it a lot more with 6 boulders (spits out boulders into courtyard after auto and then goes to neutral zone to get boulder once). Does this make sense the way I worded it? It was basically a boulder fight at the beginning of a match.

Match numbers or video links would be greatly helpful.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Originally Posted by Nyxyxylyth

Here's the opposite of Starvation - I was quite impressed by this force-feeding in the last few seconds of this MSC quarterfinal. 1718 enters the secret passage to try and get one more score in the last 20 seconds, and the opposing human player "helps them out" by rapidly unloading balls behind them - preventing 1718 from getting back and completing the capture.

https://youtu.be/WYKOsGtXaVk?t=2m6s

shouldn't that be a G24?

Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, entanglements, or deliberately putting a BOULDER on an opponent’s ROBOT are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy, RED CARD

The human player's intent was clearly to get the robot stuck by sending boulders in. Since he was successful, that could be a red card

[Jarren Harkema]

Originally Posted by MaGiC_PiKaChU

shouldn't that be a G24?



The human player's intent was clearly to get the robot stuck by sending boulders in. Since he was successful, that could be a red card

This rule falls under section "3.4.6 ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction", which in that case I would say that it was a perfectly legal strategy.

If anything, a G34 should have been called, as I saw at least 8 boulders come out of the castle.