Is FRC giving high CG robots a free pass on defense?

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

My suggestion would be to completely get rid of the tipping rule. Put it on the teams to build untippable or rightable robots if they want to be successful instead of putting it on refs to judge 'intent'. There are way too many examples of tipping being called inconsistently this year.

In order to prevent teams from just building wedges and going around tipping/lifting other robots, put a rule in the says any tipping as a result of non-bumper to bumper contact is a red card. It is a whole lot easier for a ref to judge if a robot as an appendage outside their bumpers than if they intended to tip another robot.

+1

[MamaSpoldi]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

My suggestion would be to completely get rid of the tipping rule. Put it on the teams to build untippable or rightable robots if they want to be successful instead of putting it on refs to judge 'intent'. There are way too many examples of tipping being called inconsistently this year.

In order to prevent teams from just building wedges and going around tipping/lifting other robots, put a rule in the says any tipping as a result of non-bumper to bumper contact is a red card. It is a whole lot easier for a ref to judge if a robot as an appendage outside their bumpers than if they intended to tip another robot.

+2

Refs do a great job at making very difficult decisions... it is nearly impossible for them to judge intent with the current rule. This suggested change provides much improved context for that judgement call.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

My suggestion would be to completely get rid of the tipping rule. Put it on the teams to build untippable or rightable robots if they want to be successful instead of putting it on refs to judge 'intent'. There are way too many examples of tipping being called inconsistently this year.

In order to prevent teams from just building wedges and going around tipping/lifting other robots, put a rule in the says any tipping as a result of non-bumper to bumper contact is a red card. It is a whole lot easier for a ref to judge if a robot as an appendage outside their bumpers than if they intended to tip another robot.

There is a reason why that rule came into existence...

You can't make an untippable robot vs a ramp robot.

Kinda concerning people think this a good idea.

Originally Posted by MamaSpoldi

+2

Refs do a great job at making very difficult decisions... it is nearly impossible for them to judge intent with the current rule. This suggested change provides much improved context for that judgement call.

Instead of giving them hard calls, make tipping common place with robot damage!

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

You can't make an untippable robot vs a ramp robot.

How would one make a ramp robot without extending outside the frame perimeter? (I'm assuming bumper rules will be the same).

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

How would one make a ramp robot without extending outside the frame perimeter? (I'm assuming bumper rules will be the same).

Any robot is flippable from bumper to bumper contact

https://youtu.be/Gbdb3ZiHdq8?t=1m58s

I know the poofs got flipped earlier that year too from bumper to bumper contact. If there is enough traction between the robots and contact is made a couple inches above the ground someones going to tip.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

How would one make a ramp robot without extending outside the frame perimeter? (I'm assuming bumper rules will be the same).

Robots are allowed to extend outside of the frame perimeter...

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

Robots are allowed to extend outside of the frame perimeter...

I believe my suggestion prevents teams from putting a ramp (or fork lift) outside their frame perimeter to tip teams. If a robot is outside their frame perimeter and contacts another team who tips, then it's a red card. Any other situations (such as pure bumper to bumper contact) would be no penalty.

[dirtbikerxz]

For anyone not understanding, what Mr. XaulZan11 is saying is that any tipping occurred by ONLY bumper contact should be legal. Building ramps or arms that are designed for tipping WILL NOT be legal, because they ARE NOT part of the BUMPER. And since you can't shape the BUMPER to be like a ramp, than all teams will be in the same situation.

It is up to the teams to design bots to have a low center of gravity. It is part of the designing challenge just as much as being able to go under the low bar is.

While I agree Mr. XaulZan11 on most of this, I still believe that if one team has consistently tipped more than a couple of bots at a regional, than they should be talked to, and excessive tipping should result on penalties.

In my opinion first time tippers, or even second time tippers that only used bumper contact while tipping should not be penalized.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

Any robot is flippable from bumper to bumper contact
https://youtu.be/Gbdb3ZiHdq8?t=1m58s

I know the poofs got flipped earlier that year too from bumper to bumper contact. If there is enough traction between the robots and contact is made a couple inches above the ground someones going to tip.

Yes, but that has NOTHING to do with bots designed to tip such as ramp bots. If you called what happened in that video "intentional design of the bot to tip other bots", than you might as well just ban going faster than 1 ft/sec.... and even than bots might still tip.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I believe my suggestion prevents teams from putting a ramp (or fork lift) outside their frame perimeter to tip teams. If a robot is outside their frame perimeter and contacts another team who tips, then it's a red card. Any other situations (such as pure bumper to bumper contact) would be no penalty.

Ah right you are, I totally misread that other part of your original post.

It still would have not worked really for 2016. Pneumatic wheels make any robot easy to tip. I actually don't mind it for other years however.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

It still would have not worked really for 2016. Pneumatic wheels make any robot easy to tip.

Just curious, are you saying that bots with pneumatic wheels are easy to tip? Or are you saying that bots with pneumatic wheels can easily tip others?

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

Yes, but that has NOTHING to do with bots designed to tip such as ramp bots. If you called what happened in that video "intentional design of the bot to tip other bots", than you might as well just ban going faster than 1 ft/sec.... and even than bots might still tip.

It does have nothing to do with bots that are designed to tip . I am saying that even elite teams get tipped from bumper to bumper contact. If I am in a match with the Poofs (and I don't care about making my Grandma proud) then I am absolutely going to flip them if there isn't going to be a penalty. And you can flip the Poofs just like you could flip any robot (unless the the robot you are trying to flip has no traction underneath, like if they have mecanums or regolith).

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

It does have nothing to do with bots that are designed to tip . I am saying that even elite teams get tipped from bumper to bumper contact. If I am in a match with the Poofs (and I don't care about making my Grandma proud) then I am absolutely going to flip them if there isn't going to be a penalty. And you can flip the Poofs just like you could flip any robot (unless the the robot you are trying to flip has no traction underneath, like if they have mecanums or regolith).

Ahh, I get what your saying. But you also have to understand, most teams in first do exercise gracious professionalism. If you started doing that, you certainly will be getting hate from other teams, and might even end up on the DNP (do not pick) list for teams.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

Just curious, are you saying that bots with pneumatic wheels are easy to tip? Or are you saying that bots with pneumatic wheels can easily tip others?

Robots with pneumatic wheels are significantly easier to tip.

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

Ahh, I get what your saying. But you also have to understand, most teams in first do exercise gracious professionalism. If you started doing that, you certainly will be getting hate from other teams, and might even end up on the DNP (do not pick) list for teams.

Why? It would be "legal" as per the rules.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

Robots with pneumatic wheels are significantly easier to tip.

True..... but all I can say is, good luck trying to tip ours. While I know low clearance bots were hard or impossible to do in aerial assist, in most games it is possible to design a bot to have a really really really hard time to tip even with pneumatic wheels.