Texas UIL State Championship Qualification Information

[dyanoshak]

I feel like this thread has gotten way off topic and readers will get the wrong impression about what is really happening in Texas.

The facts as stated by a few people in this thread and the FIRST in Texas website:

• TRR is switching to an invite model similar to other off-season events this year only. Invitations will go out based on the points method described on the FIT website and UIL eligibility. 10 slots PLUS any unfilled slots will be application based entry.
• TRR is also serving as a pilot UIL Texas State Championship, so any team that falls into the UIL bucket can be recognized within UIL circles. This doesn't affect any other standings/awards at the event.
• Any Texas FRC team or collection of FTC teams can continue participating, competing, winning, etc. as they would.
• If and only if that team wants to get recognized in UIL circles with UIL awards and UIL standings, they must be UIL eligible and follow UIL rules.
• The fact that UIL recognizes FIRST doesn't mean that suddenly every Texas FIRST team must make themselves UIL eligible.
• If a school is telling its FIRST team that it must remove students to be eligible, then it is a school issue, not a FIRST or FIRST in Texas issue.

UIL recognizing robotics doesn't prevent any existing or future teams and students from participating in FIRST. It only gives one more avenue for recognition for those who happen to qualify.

I’ve said it on CD before and I think it would be good advice for this thread:

As it states on the front cover of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: DON’T PANIC

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by dyanoshak

If a school is telling its FIRST team that it must remove students to be eligible, then it is a school issue, not a FIRST or FIRST in Texas issue.

Well the argument of this thread is, that by accepting a bid form UIL, some schools/districts will now require their teams be UIL eligible affecting existing teams. So the fact that some teams will have to restructure/turn away kids IS sort of a FIT issue.

While I think in the end, this won't be as big of a deal as some people think, I also believe its become apparent that a large group of Texas teams are not UIL eligible currently and it's concerning.

[dyanoshak]

Originally Posted by JohnSchneider

Well the argument of this thread is, that by accepting a bid form UIL, some schools/districts will now require their teams be UIL eligible affecting existing teams. So the fact that some teams will have to restructure/turn away kids IS sort of a FIT issue.

I still consider this a decision on the school district side of things. If the school says "now that there is a UIL option, you must compete in UIL" it is the school being exclusionary. I don't think it is fair to blame FIT’s move to get more schools involved (schools that don't look at anything but UIL).

My school has had a rule for a long time that we can't have students on the team from outside of the district; it is a liability issue independent of the UIL rules. I would assume most schools have similar rules that exist regardless of the UIL status of robotics.

2158 had home school and out of district kids on our team in our first few years until the administration noticed and told us to follow the rules. We had to restructure/turn away kids, but we made the best of it and helped them start their own programs.

It is quite possible that at the schools where teams MIGHT have to restructure, it would have happened anyway regardless of UIL participation once the administration realized that students from outside their school were participating on the school’s team.

[Coach Norm]

Originally Posted by dyanoshak

I feel like this thread has gotten way off topic and readers will get the wrong impression about what is really happening in Texas.

The facts as stated by a few people in this thread and the FIRST in Texas website:

• TRR is switching to an invite model similar to other off-season events this year only. Invitations will go out based on the points method described on the FIT website and UIL eligibility. 10 slots PLUS any unfilled slots will be application based entry.
• TRR is also serving as a pilot UIL Texas State Championship, so any team that falls into the UIL bucket can be recognized within UIL circles. This doesn't affect any other standings/awards at the event.
• Any Texas FRC team or collection of FTC teams can continue participating, competing, winning, etc. as they would.
• If and only if that team wants to get recognized in UIL circles with UIL awards and UIL standings, they must be UIL eligible and follow UIL rules.
• The fact that UIL recognizes FIRST doesn't mean that suddenly every Texas FIRST team must make themselves UIL eligible.
• If a school is telling its FIRST team that it must remove students to be eligible, then it is a school issue, not a FIRST or FIRST in Texas issue.

UIL recognizing robotics doesn't prevent any existing or future teams and students from participating in FIRST. It only gives one more avenue for recognition for those who happen to qualify.

I’ve said it on CD before and I think it would be good advice for this thread:

As it states on the front cover of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: DON’T PANIC

+1

[fresh_prince]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Are private schools included in other UIL events? In those cases, are all private schools invited or is it a subset of the private schools?

The only private schools that are UIL members are Strake Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#3847 - Spectrum) and Dallas Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#2848 - All Sparks). This situation only exists because our two schools sued back in 2003.

As Allen mentioned earlier, this makes things complicated for 3847 because all of the girls on our team are from a non-UIL school, St Agnes.

[hectorcastillo]

I don't believe that UIL is the problem here, and by problem I mean the ones people should be upset with. The reason FIRST is supporting the inclusion of UIL is so that FIRST can reach more schools and start more teams (both to pursue their mission and bring in more money). This inclusion of UIL only includes an additional event in the off-season. Notice so far that nothing is being taken away, only added.

From what I've gathered, people are upset because either their team won't be able to participate in the additional UIL event or that they will have to turn kids away in order to attend this additional UIL event. Neither FIRST nor UIL is forcing any team to participate in the additional UIL event. That decision is made solely by the team and whatever school/organization controls the team. So if you are being "forced" to turn away kids from your team, it is because your school is "forcing" you, not UIL or FIRST.

Now let's look at why your school would be forcing your team to become UIL eligible. One reason may be that perhaps competition in the UIL state championship would benefit the school reputation. Another, more intuitive reason, would be so that their students can receive UIL recognition that they could not receive before. Notice that by not requiring the team to be UIL eligible, you are still not taking anything away from the students, only providing some with more opportunities at the cost of opportunities for others.

So here is the the real question (and this is directed at whoever is making the UIL eligibility decision for the team): Are you willing to turn away some students so that other students can get UIL recognition?

If yes: some students are mildly appreciative but sad that some of their friends aren't allowed to be on the team anymore. And other students and parents are really pissed off.

If no: great. Literally keep doing what you would've been doing if this UIL thing never even came up.

The sad part, in my opinion, is that they have to use TRR for their test run THIS year in particular. Why does it have to be when we're playing FIRST Stronghold?! Why couldn't it have been during Recycle Rush?! No one liked Recycle Rush!!! I mean sure, there are a ton of other great off season events in Texas, but I always enjoy going to TRR. But I'll live, and so will everyone else.

[TheDarkNight]

Originally Posted by hectorcastillo

The sad part, in my opinion, is that they have to use TRR for their test run THIS year in particular. Why does it have to be when we're playing FIRST Stronghold?! Why couldn't it have been during Recycle Rush?! No one liked Recycle Rush!!! I mean sure, there are a ton of other great off season events in Texas, but I always enjoy going to TRR. But I'll live, and so will everyone else.

Don't see why you are trying to act sorry, I'm sure your team will get one of the 10 spots, considering your Bayou performance.

[hectorcastillo]

Originally Posted by TheDarkNight

Don't see why you are trying to act sorry, I'm sure your team will get one of the 10 spots, considering your Bayou performance.

I meant to speak generally, not necessarily with regards to my team. I was just saying that it's unfortunate that participation is most restricted for such a good game.

And thanks, I guess.

[Jon Stratis]

I've been following this thread with interest for a while, but have tried to avoid posting because I don't think it's my place to tell Texas how they should run, and I probably won't post more past this. However, I can provide a little insight from Minnesota's association with the Minnesota State High School League and our state championship. This will be the 5th year we run the event, and it's been a success each year. Teams come, play, have fun, and a couple of teams walk away with trophies and recognition they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.

To say the State Championship is a big deal for a lot of teams here is an understatement. Attending, or if your lucky enough winning, brings with it a level of recognition and prestige in our schools that is unmatched by regionals or event champs - States is something that is on par with all the other sports, something everyone in the school naturally gets without having to have everything explained. Having those trophies, which look just like the trophies other sports get for winning their respective state championships, is huge. I've known teams that have won regionals, attended champs multiple times... But it's their attendance at and winning of the state championship that is recognized across their community. It provides them with huge boosts in recruitment and funding as well.

Aside from the championship, recognition from the MSHSL has had a measurable impact on teams. Teachers find it easier to get stipends for their work with the teams, schools provide more funding for teams, and even schools athletic directors are getting involved - in fact, the school I work with renamed the position last year to "activities director" in recognition that it's about more than just athletics. That support specifically brings with it a lot of help that we never used to have.

So, I'll always be on the side of "state championships are good".

For the "split" that's happening between UIL teams and non-UIL teams... That really is unfortunate. But I strongly believe that FiT didn't really have a choice in the matter. If UIL is going to recognize robotics programs, and schools are going to care so much about it that we see this level of discussion, isn't it better to be involved with that process? What would have happened if GoT turned their noses up at the UIL, said "everyone or no one"?. It's possible, maybe even likely, that the UIL would say "ok, we're going to recognize this other robotics program instead". Then where would all of you be? Would we have schools telling you "well, you can't do FIRST anymore because we want you to do this other program so we get the recognition. Oh, and you still have to refuse any non-UIL student."? I think refusing to be a part of UIL would have had many more downsides than joining up.

After all, what are we all supposed to be trying to do? The first 4 words of FIRST's vision is "To transform our culture". You don't do that from the outside. So get in there, get the UIL people hooked on the FIRST culture, and try to change theirs. It's up to each and every one of us to be a champion of FIRST, to constantly push our schools and community to change. It doesn't happen overnight, but it is something you can achieve.

[Greg McKaskle]

Think about high school football games or other sports. Does that look like FIRST culture? Does the territorialism exhibited at those UIL events resemble anything we have been taught to value in FIRST, most notably GP?

I agree that UIL sports culture is not the same as FIRST, but I'd encourage you to read the Wikipedia page about UIL academics. A half million kids participate in UIL academics each year. I couldn't find an equivalent sum-up number for FIRST, but I believe they are about the same size, UIL being a bit bigger in number of students involved in academic activities.

I graduated HS before FIRST existed, and UIL academics was my own FIRST equivalent. It gave me a place to focus my energy and achieve something -- alongside adult teachers/coaches. It pointed me towards higher education, helped with funding, gave me confidence, and yes -- I even made friends because of it. There are many other programs that provide these same benefits -- FIRST is awesome and I enjoy volunteering and advancing its goals, but it isn't the only organization making a difference.

I cannot comment on how this will impact established FIRST teams. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I trust that many people are doing their best to make this transition as positive as possible. I appreciate your concern, and hope that you are able to be involved in order to represent your team's situation.

But. I think it is unfair to lump all of UIL into what you see/read about in HS football or other aggressive sports events. Nerds, geeks, and future scientists and engineers at a math meet are not that different than when they are at a FIRST event. If your slide-rule broke, some one would loan you their backup -- before my time BTW. If your decimal key or zero key wears out on your calculator, someone would loan you their backup -- yes, that happened to me.

I'm proud of what UIL academics accomplishes and hope that we can find a way to make robotics a part of it. This trial will help determine if that makes sense.

Greg McKaskle

[FBHS_Robotics]

Originally Posted by Coach Norm

I have had great response from David Trussell with UIL when I call or email him in regards to UIL and robotics. David has been working with FIRST on this project for quite a while.

I e-mailed David Trussel (about the one school, one team aspect for FTC) and his answer was basically what was said previously. This is a pilot and all aspects of the rules, competition, etc. will be reviewed after this year.

Not really an formal answer but he got back to me in less than 24 hours and recognized my concerns. While, this doesn't mean that anything will be done in the future to address my concern, at least it shows me that UIL is trying to listen.

[Mykey]

Originally Posted by fresh_prince

The only private schools that are UIL members are Strake Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#3847 - Spectrum) and Dallas Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#2848 - All Sparks). This situation only exists because our two schools sued back in 2003.

As Allen mentioned earlier, this makes things complicated for 3847 because all of the girls on our team are from a non-UIL school, St Agnes.

This is not completely correct. Central Catholic here in San Antonio is an UIL school.

5986 hopes to get an invite. That being said, I can see where this is a double edged sword. Although the rookie team I am running now is not excluded, I am also a home-schooling parent, a scout leader, and a mentor from a prior team that this will exclude.

There are already some serious additional challenges that a non-school based team has to overcome. Widening that gap is not the way to go.

In the future I hope that the UIL rules/competition will stay the same as FRC's. It is already hard enough to sustain an FRC program as it is without dividing the resources to meet multiple goals.

[jee7s]

Originally Posted by Mykey

This is not completely correct. Central Catholic here in San Antonio is an UIL school.

5986 hopes to get an invite...

Can you provide your conference and district? Looking at the posted UIL Academic Alignments (here: https://www.uiltexas.org/academics/alignments) doesn't show SA Central Catholic as a UIL school.

[fresh_prince]

Originally Posted by Mykey

This is not completely correct. Central Catholic here in San Antonio is an UIL school.

This document comprises an alphabetical list of all UIL member schools and their division alignments. I did not see Central Catholic when I looked, but it may be under a different name if it is there.

This document from the TAPPS website also lists Central Catholic as a TAPPS school.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by dyanoshak

I still consider this a decision on the school district side of things. If the school says "now that there is a UIL option, you must compete in UIL" it is the school being exclusionary.

I wouldn't use the word "exclusionary". It makes it sound like the UIL teams are doing something intentional. This is simply the beginnings of a merger of two organizations whose prior structures are not 100% compatible. I know in our district many policies, insurance and otherwise, are written with references to the UIL guidelines. It was easier since UIL is the predominant vehicle for all organized club and sports competitions. The school itself has no choice and the district had no malice. There may be some pre-existing public versus private school exclusion issues, too big a topic to debate on CD, but I do not think individual schools are being intentionally "exclusionary".