What will FRC 2016 Stronghold be remembered by?

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Brian Michell

To my team it will be remembered as the "Great Rhino Drive Debacle". We lost 3 weeks trying to get a drive train. Everybody had their heart set on a rhino drive but we could never get one. RhinoDrive has become a word that is jokingly banned in the club.

In my opinion, I am glad you didn't get a rhino drive. We were in the pit right behind you guys at lone star, and I think I remember you guys had pneumatic. Anyway, there were so many teams that had problems with rhino. They broke down a lot. And even when they didn't break down, they simply couldn't match the speed, agility, and toughness that a good drive train with pneumatic wheels had. No Rhino bot would have been able to maneuver like a bot like ours.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

In my opinion, I am glad you didn't get a rhino drive. We were in the pit right behind you guys at lone star, and I think I remember you guys had pneumatic. Anyway, there were so many teams that had problems with rhino. They broke down a lot. And even when they didn't break down, they simply couldn't match the speed, agility, and toughness that a good drive train with pneumatic wheels had. No Rhino bot would have been able to maneuver like a bot like ours.

Low pressure pneumatic wheels for the win!*

*They make you bounce a lot if you inflate them 'correctly'

[Anthony Galea]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

In my opinion, I am glad you didn't get a rhino drive. We were in the pit right behind you guys at lone star, and I think I remember you guys had pneumatic. Anyway, there were so many teams that had problems with rhino. They broke down a lot. And even when they didn't break down, they simply couldn't match the speed, agility, and toughness that a good drive train with pneumatic wheels had. No Rhino bot would have been able to maneuver like a bot like ours.

I believe that only one team with Rhino treads made Einstein (5050). So I would agree that they usually not worth the trouble.

[Chris is me]

I wouldn't say they weren't worth the trouble. It was possible to build a better system custom, sure, but Rhino treads helped hundreds of teams field competitive drivetrains that could cross defenses, and I'm willing to bet at least half of those teams would not have been able to do so otherwise. They were a fine product and a good solution for this year's game. They were not free of issues, but that applies to many, MANY custom drivetrains this year as well.

While I very much could be wrong on this one, I believe 195's treads were a custom variant of the Rhino tread system as well? So more than one Einstein team was rocking treads in any case. And you can't necessarily consider lack of use as an argument against the effectiveness of a drive system that was introduced very shortly before Kickoff - many teams simply were not willing to take a risk on a new product like that in a system as critical as the drivetrain.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by maxnz

Low pressure pneumatic wheels for the win!*

*They make you bounce a lot if you inflate them 'correctly'

We tried leaving the wheels low pressure for our first match this season, but after that match, as the driver I felt a lot of sluggishness, so I had them filled up to close to max...... Let's just say, If you knew how to drive and play right... they were a godsend. No terrain defense stood a chance, we literally "hopped" over all of them. And the speed our bot was able to get out of them (close to 30 ft/sec, more like 26) was insane.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I wouldn't say they weren't worth the trouble. It was possible to build a better system custom, sure, but Rhino treads helped hundreds of teams field competitive drivetrains that could cross defenses, and I'm willing to bet at least half of those teams would not have been able to do so otherwise.

Please excuse my ignorance, no arrogance meant here at all, but was building a 6 or so wheel pneumatic (west coast) drive train that could perform decently well really that complicated? (Again no arrogance here, just curious)

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

Please excuse my ignorance, no arrogance meant here at all, but was building a 6 or so wheel pneumatic (west coast) drive train that could perform decently well really that complicated? (Again no arrogance here, just curious)

Surprisingly, yes. There were several issues with it this year.

• The "standard" WCD 16 tooth sprocket was simply not adequate to take the hard loads of the FRC field. Dozens of teams dealt with sprocket failure all season trying to cope with the extra forces involved.
• Leaving no gaps in the drivetrain to prevent getting stuck on the rough terrain or moat while traversing slowly required attention to design details and usually more than six wheels. You could get a running start and avoid these issues most of the time, but not always.
• In some cases, you could improperly load the old lower load 1/2" hex bearings or 1/2" hex shafts of weaker material.
• Building a custom drivetrain at all is out of the reach of a large number of FRC teams; at least building one that is better than a commercial product. Vex has made this very easy in the last few years though.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

In my opinion, I am glad you didn't get a rhino drive. We were in the pit right behind you guys at lone star, and I think I remember you guys had pneumatic. Anyway, there were so many teams that had problems with rhino. They broke down a lot. And even when they didn't break down, they simply couldn't match the speed, agility, and toughness that a good drive train with pneumatic wheels had. No Rhino bot would have been able to maneuver like a bot like ours.

Zero issues with rhino treads. Our lead screw on the other hand broke twice. And our vision system is slightly buggy. But no issues with rhino treads.

[emeraldstorm]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I wouldn't say they weren't worth the trouble. It was possible to build a better system custom, sure, but Rhino treads helped hundreds of teams field competitive drivetrains that could cross defenses, and I'm willing to bet at least half of those teams would not have been able to do so otherwise. They were a fine product and a good solution for this year's game. They were not free of issues, but that applies to many, MANY custom drivetrains this year as well.

While I very much could be wrong on this one, I believe 195's treads were a custom variant of the Rhino tread system as well? So more than one Einstein team was rocking treads in any case. And you can't necessarily consider lack of use as an argument against the effectiveness of a drive system that was introduced very shortly before Kickoff - many teams simply were not willing to take a risk on a new product like that in a system as critical as the drivetrain.

Our team went with the RhinoTreads this year, and if I were to do it all over again, I would definitely go with a pneumatic wheel base. The treads caused too many compatibility and reliability issues with us, even with the upgraded pulleys. A 6WD or 8WD 8" pneumatic drivetrain, welded aluminum 1x1" frame, and 6-CIM PTO. We're gonna have the CAD and engineering power next year, and I'm really feeling it.

Now, for a beginner product, it certainly worked well. It put up well for what the game did to the robots. Nobody on our current team had any drivetrain engineering experience, and we went with what everybody else was going for. Thing is, it's a base product. It could easily be improved upon, yet serves the purpose quite adequately, just like any other base drivetrain you can order. And, it was a direct upgrade to the AM14U3 chassis. I saw several unlucky teams getting their chassis bent to hell in one day.

[SeeleySWS]

Originally Posted by CloakAndDagger

On a side note, there is a valid reason that FIRST doesn't mic drive teams

Haha especially this year! I can say that our team's drive teams both had a lot of great moments!

You can complain about what #TSIMFD but Will really said what I think most high schoolers think about the program... I mean we can act like engineers and scientists don't swear but they do... It might not have been professional but it sums up what all the students think.

[Jon K.]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I wouldn't say they weren't worth the trouble. It was possible to build a better system custom, sure, but Rhino treads helped hundreds of teams field competitive drivetrains that could cross defenses, and I'm willing to bet at least half of those teams would not have been able to do so otherwise. They were a fine product and a good solution for this year's game. They were not free of issues, but that applies to many, MANY custom drivetrains this year as well.

While I very much could be wrong on this one, I believe 195's treads were a custom variant of the Rhino tread system as well? So more than one Einstein team was rocking treads in any case. And you can't necessarily consider lack of use as an argument against the effectiveness of a drive system that was introduced very shortly before Kickoff - many teams simply were not willing to take a risk on a new product like that in a system as critical as the drivetrain.

We at AndyMark loved working on the Rhino, and loved seeing what teams like 195, 1747, and others came up with on ways to use the Rhino pulleys and belts in their own custom drive systems. I was amazed watching the hundreds of matches that I refereed this year and continually seeing the different drive configurations that were out there.

Also, congratulations to team 1501 who ran a stock Rhino system the whole season and made their way to Einstein and made all of us in Indiana proud!

This year was brutal on everyone, teams, robots, field crews and referees alike, but I think we can all agree that it brought the community together like very few games before it, and really allowed teams to focus on teaching moments similar to those that engineering in the real world has!

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by emeraldstorm

Our team went with the RhinoTreads this year, and if I were to do it all over again, I would definitely go with a pneumatic wheel base. The treads caused too many compatibility and reliability issues with us, even with the upgraded pulleys. A 6WD or 8WD 8" pneumatic drivetrain, welded aluminum 1x1" frame, and 6-CIM PTO. We're gonna have the CAD and engineering power next year, and I'm really feeling it.

We didn't even weld. Just used a whole bunch of versachassis brackets, and a lot of bolts that ran from top to bottom through the entire drive train.... our bot was one of the very few that never broke down (drive train wise) at both of our regionals. ... Now our arm on the other hand... broke a few times at the first regional.

[EricH]

There's a lot of things to remember it by...

But I think one of the best is the WIDE variety of designs. Sure, there were a few "themes"--the low pop-up intake/shooter (can't think of one off the top of my head, at least definitely), the intake/elevated shooter combo (1538 comes to mind), the catapults, and the usual Brave Little Toasters (AKA, cheesecake plates), but overall the variety was HUGE this year. That isn't something that I've seen in a while. (2015 had one basic robot type: stack, stack, stack more, possibly with canburglars; 2014 had one-ish basic types, varying based on intake(s); 2013's main variance was the climbers... you get the idea.)

I really do think that this was one of the best games FIRST has ever developed. It's right up there with 2004 and 2007 for me on the list of "games I've played". It'd probably be up there even without 2015 happening.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by jojoguy10

Red cards were a bigger deal in 2013 in Ultimate Ascent. And 2014 had 50 point penalties that were basically red card equivalents. This year was mild in comparison.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Red cards were a bigger deal in 2013 in Ultimate Ascent. And 2014 had 50 point penalties that were basically red card equivalents. This year was mild in comparison.

Can't ever forget the legendary pillar of FRC Game Design: the double red card in Logomotion.