Poor calling by refs Newton Subdivision SF2 M2

[Jopidia]

I'm not complaining, as there as obviously nothing that can be done about this at this point, but this was a very poor call by the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUkv_Tj3SEo

If you skip forward to 2:12 in the video, you can see 1477 from the blue alliance attempting to make its way back to the batter for the capture. However, on its way through the secret passage, the side panel came off of the defense in position 5 and prevented 1477 from crossing through the neutral zone. This slowed down the team very significantly, and prevented them from making it on the batter in the end.

We tried talking to the refs about it, but their explanation is that "It could have been avoided."

If we had the capture, it would have been an extra 30 points (25 for capture, 5 for challenge), and the blue alliance would have won the match 210 to 205.

Either way, 5172 had a great time competing at this event. It's just too bad this is the way we had to go out.

[Michael Corsetto]

This should have been a field fault and had the match replayed.

I was not impressed with the referee quality at CMP this year.

-Mike

[first3234]

I agree even though I wasn't there on a couple matches that I watched quite a few matches to be able to tell the ref quality was not as it should of been and it could of been better but they should've checked the defense side shields to make sure they are secured at Michigan districts we used gafers tape to secure the end shield so technically it is a field fault/arena fault

[P.J.]

If you read the section of the tournament rules that deals with field faults, the blue box underneath it reads:

Note that an ARENA FAULT that does not affect MATCH outcome
in the judgement of the Head REFEREE does not lead to a MATCH
replay. Examples include, but are not limited to:
A. a piece of FIELD plastic falls into the FIELD in the last 5 seconds of a
MATCH, far away from any human or ROBOT activity, and in such a
way that it does not affect MATCH outcome
B. delay in the playing of an ARENA sound
C. mismatch between the timer on the Audience Screen and the FIELD
Timer

While it was in the last ~20 as opposed to 5 seconds, it would appear this piece of field plastic broke off and fell into the field and did not affect the match outcome. If you watch carefully 1477 gets stuck on boulders, not the actual field piece. So it was within the rights of the Head Referee to choose not to replay this match.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by P.J.

If you read the section of the tournament rules that deals with field faults, the blue box underneath it reads:

Note that an ARENA FAULT that does not affect MATCH outcome
in the judgement of the Head REFEREE does not lead to a MATCH
replay. Examples include, but are not limited to:
A. a piece of FIELD plastic falls into the FIELD in the last 5 seconds of a
MATCH, far away from any human or ROBOT activity, and in such a
way that it does not affect MATCH outcome
B. delay in the playing of an ARENA sound
C. mismatch between the timer on the Audience Screen and the FIELD
Timer

While it was in the last ~20 as opposed to 5 seconds, it would appear this piece of field plastic broke off and fell into the field and did not affect the match outcome. If you watch carefully 1477 gets stuck on boulders, not the actual field piece. So it was within the rights of the Head Referee to choose not to replay this match.

In what way was the piece of Field plastic "far away from any human or robot activity"? It was touching the robot.

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

In what way was the piece of Field plastic "far away from any human or robot activity"? It was touching the robot.

I was pointing out the part about it not affecting the outcome of the match. The box also says that reasons not to replay a match are not limited to that list.

[EmileH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

In what way was the piece of Field plastic "far away from any human or robot activity"? It was touching the robot.

It was not far away. 1477 touched it and knocked it off. However, it was not the divider that was holding them up, what was holding them up was a boulder, which you can see clearly in the image attached.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by P.J.

I was pointing out the part about it not affecting the outcome of the match. The box also says that reasons not to replay a match are not limited to that list.

Originally Posted by EmileH

It was not. 1477 touched it and knocked it off. However, it was not the divider that was holding them up, what was holding them up was a boulder, which you can see clearly in the image attached.

It is pretty clear the intent of the exception to the field fault rule is not for cases that could go either way. It is clearly not for "close calls" like this one. It is for things that are completely unimportant that someone is screaming about in order to get a match replay. Even if 1477 got stuck on other game obstacles during the last 30 seconds, it is plainly obvious that the plastic was a part of why they got hung up in the end, and affected the outcome of the match. Denying the team a field fault because of this ruling is really stretching the intent of the rules to match what was decided on the field, to be honest.

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Even if 1477 got stuck on other game obstacles during the last 30 seconds, it is plainly obvious that the plastic was a part of why they got hung up in the end, and affected the outcome of the match.

I would argue that it was not plainly obvious that the plastic was a part of why they didn't make it to the batter. After initially knocking it off, they never contact the plastic again.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Jopidia

If we had the capture, it would have been an extra 30 points (25 for capture, 5 for challenge), and the blue alliance would have won the match 210 to 205.

To be completely fair, they got hung up on a boulder, then struggled to cross a defense, and finally tried to use the secret passage to get back.

Even if they had made it, you'd have lost points for them using the secret passage.

If I remember right, this was immediately following the long discussion surrounding 254's potential second yellow card. With such a strict timeline, it's not surprising the refs would err on the side of "if any of those three things hadn't happened, they'd be on the batter and this would be a non-issue" rather than jumping to make a replay and push things further beyond the time limit.

Given the conversations I heard over the weekend, the refs were very worried about making sure things were as fair as possible for all parties. Think about the thread title here. It'd be just as fair to say "Poor driving by 1477 on Newton Subdivision SF2 M2" but it shouldn't really be said, either.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

This should have been a field fault and had the match replayed.

I was not impressed with the referee quality at CMP this year.

-Mike

I get that it's a hard game to referee, but there were missed crossings on hopper happening at a breathtaking pace, similar to a week 2 district.

2017: Divide and Conquer!

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

I was not impressed with the referee quality at CMP this year.

-Mike

It's not the first time either unfortunately :/

[Carolyn_Grace]

Referees are one of the most difficult roles to recruit for. It is a thankless position that causes stress and guilt and posts like this on CD.

If you're not happy with the quality of refereeing, then volunteer for the position yourself or help recruit other people who you believe will be quality refs.

I know of at least two people who were irritated with the reffing situation this weekend, and both of them let me know that they absolutely will be refs in Indiana next year, to help us improve our local cache.

Don't just complain on CD. Do something about it.

[Jopidia]

Originally Posted by JeffB

To be completely fair, they got hung up on a boulder, then struggled to cross a defense, and finally tried to use the secret passage to get back.

Even if they had made it, you'd have lost points for them using the secret passage.

If I remember right, this was immediately following the long discussion surrounding 254's potential second yellow card. With such a strict timeline, it's not surprising the refs would err on the side of "if any of those three things hadn't happened, they'd be on the batter and this would be a non-issue" rather than jumping to make a replay and push things further beyond the time limit.

Given the conversations I heard over the weekend, the refs were very worried about making sure things were as fair as possible for all parties. Think about the thread title here. It'd be just as fair to say "Poor driving by 1477 on Newton Subdivision SF2 M2" but it shouldn't really be said, either.

I see what you're saying, but you should look at 1477's visibility. They were stationed at driving position 3 (the right side), so much of that interaction with the boulder and broken field piece was completely hidden by the Sally Port. I don't know about you, but I would find it mighty suspicious if I knocked off a piece of the field, lost sight of our robot's chassis due to the sally port, tried to drive forward and then saw our robot tipping backwards. I can't say for sure, but I think our teammates THOUGHT they were stuck on a piece of the field. Either way, it forced them to drive all the way around it rather than driving straight over the ball, which you could see them easily doing at 2:27.

And it can go without saying that the team obviously would have driven over the rock wall and not through the secret passage if this incident had not occurred.

[Jopidia]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

Referees are one of the most difficult roles to recruit for. It is a thankless position that causes stress and guilt and posts like this on CD.

If you're not happy with the quality of refereeing, then volunteer for the position yourself or help recruit other people who you believe will be quality refs.

I know of at least two people who were irritated with the reffing situation this weekend, and both of them let me know that they absolutely will be refs in Indiana next year, to help us improve our local cache.

Don't just complain on CD. Do something about it.

I completely agree, and I'm not blaming the ref or complaining. I was just pointing out an observation I made. I might have made the same call myself if I was a ref, who knows?