Questions about FIRST Future

[staplemonx]

So let's say FIRST get this coin thing passed. What are they going to do with the money ($3,150,000)? http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstinspires.org%2Fsites %2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fuploads%2Fchampionship%2Fchri sta-mcauliffe-commemorative-coin-act.pdf&h=IAQHOTApM

They already have a pretty hefty amount in the bank ($38,790,221 if I read the 990 right), what are they saving up for? http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...0c47c2e8-9.pdf

FIRST keeps talking about adding more teams, when are they going to focus on sustainment / attrition of current teams?

Dean wants to commemorate a teacher, but FIRST does not have any way to make FIRST robotics easier for teachers to integrate into the classroom or get teachers paid for their time. When will FIRST start to really support teachers?

Dean's homework is annoying me as I think about these questions. He just asked all of the kids to lobby on behalf of FIRST without giving them the vision or plan for the funds.

Dean just asked the Secretary of the Depart of Defense for 7,300 more teams without talking about how FIRST plans to put starting, running, funding and supporting a team within reach of more schools.

FIRST has added more cost with the district model without any talk of reducing the registration fees at the various levels and is now asking for more money.

FIRST is significantly increasing its event expenses / revenue with a second large semi national event to inspire more people (people already involved in FIRST) without any talk about their goals concerning inspiration and how they plan to bring more people not involved in FIRST into the tent.

What are their 5 / 10 year goals? What is their plan? Why should we do more to help FIRST than we are already doing? What is in it for FIRST's workforce (teachers, mentors and volunteers)? What is in it for FIRST's customers (students, schools, school districts, counties, states)?

Don't take my questions above as negative. I am willing to help FIRST get where it wants to go, but I want to know where it wants go and why before I start.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

FIRST has added more cost with the district model without any talk of reducing the registration fees at the various levels and is now asking for more money.

The financial side of a district system is a bit more complicated. The finanical responsibility for events in a district area is the responsibility of the local organization. Registration fees still go directly to HQ but a portion of it ($1000 per team I believe, but not 100% sure) is regranted back to the local organization. Point being, it's not exactly clear whether districts increase or decrease HQ's expenses.

I agree with your questions though. There are many different views within the community about the direction all of FIRST should be headed, knowing what HQs view on the topic is as well is critical for the community to stand behind a unified effort.

[StAxis]

This is exactly how I have been feeling over the last couple of years. FIRST laid out a nice model for the future in 2011 with the district map, a model that a lot of people got behind. We thought that progress was being made, just slowly, over the last few years up until the two "championships" announcement.

FIRST is having issues with places at war over districts vs. regionals, they're staring down a huge failure rate for rookie teams, and they are not communicating their vision to anyone.

FIRST needs to tell us where they are going, and if they don't know where they're going then they need to bring in some people to help figure that out. If they're looking for help in forming a vision I happily volunteer.

This is a program I love and the greatest community I have ever been a part of. It is a community that can do great things and deserves the vision to help them do it.

FIRST has always been about bringing the floor up, not bringing the ceiling down, if the program is to thrive it needs to find a way, either as a community or as an institution, to keep teams alive and allow them to thrive.

I want to support FIRST, and we have already begun making plans for contacting multiple congressional districts, but giving us a road map will not only make that process easier, it will give teams a vision for the future, goals to work for, and a plan worth working to stick around for.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

FIRST has added more cost with the district model without any talk of reducing the registration fees at the various levels and is now asking for more money.

Wasn't this supposed to reduce the cost? What are you comparing? Are you looking at the cost to register + travel to 2 plus events compared against the cost to register and travel to a single event? Or, are you comparing the cost to register + travel to 2 events with the regional setting versus going to 2 events in the current system?

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Wasn't this supposed to reduce the cost? What are you comparing? Are you looking at the cost to register + travel to 2 plus events compared against the cost to register and travel to a single event? Or, are you comparing the cost to register + travel to 2 events with the regional setting versus going to 2 events in the current system?

regional + world champs = $10,000
2 districts + district champs + world champs = $14,000 to $15,000

There are comments on both sides of this concerning travel and cost per play that I not going to way into. So I am just looking at registration fees.

[swootton]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

regional + world champs = $10,000
2 districts + district champs + world champs = $14,000 to $15,000

There are comments on both sides of this concerning travel and cost per play that I not going to way into. So I am just looking at registration fees.

From our team's perspective, first 2 years as a regional team. $5000 regional and $5,000 Champs in year one to 2 regionals in year 2 for $5000 each. Total cost $10000 for 22 matches plus practice matches or $455 per match

Years 3 now a district, 2 districts for $5000, 3rd district for $1000, District Champs for $4000, Champs for $5000. Total matches played 70 or $214 per match.

Years 4 and 5 we attended only 3 districts and district champs for 60 matches for a cost of $166 per match.

While the overall cost to attend "all" the events is more, the cost per play is significantly lower and makes advancement more achievable for the average team. At bare minimum we get 2 full events with 12 plays each for $5000 even with no advancement. That's half the cost per play than 2 regionals or the same cost for 2x as many plays depending how you care to look at it.

We would not want to go back to a regional model even if we had the choice.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

They already have a pretty hefty amount in the bank ($38,790,221 if I read the 990 right), what are they saving up for? http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...0c47c2e8-9.pdf

Just to be clear, 38 million seems like a hefty amount of money, but their total expenses were over 57 million dollars. It is not uncommon for non-profits to strive to have 6+ months worth of their operating budget in reserves. I would suspect that the balance of FIRSTs bank account fluctuates during the year. I suspect they spend a lot in the first two quarters, and take in a lot in the second two, this alone may explain the balance. The bigger key in my opinion in the 990 is that their total revenue was 174K, this is not an amount that would show as FIRST over charging teams.

[fhobart]

We are part of the IndianaFIRST district and two district events plus competing in the state finals for a cost of 9k in registration fees afforded us 45 matches this season. This is the best deal for the dough available to us. There once was talk of crossovers with Illinois and Michigan, but to my knowledge that remains just talk for the time being.

Expansion of the district model seems the only way to grow FRC in terms of finances. I take solace in knowing every year we will have two events regardless of the quality of our machine.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by StAxis

This is exactly how I have been feeling over the last couple of years. FIRST laid out a nice model for the future in 2011 with the district map, a model that a lot of people got behind. We thought that progress was being made, just slowly, over the last few years up until the two "championships" announcement.

FIRST is having issues with places at war over districts vs. regionals, they're staring down a huge failure rate for rookie teams, and they are not communicating their vision to anyone.

FIRST needs to tell us where they are going, and if they don't know where they're going then they need to bring in some people to help figure that out. If they're looking for help in forming a vision I happily volunteer.

This is a program I love and the greatest community I have ever been a part of. It is a community that can do great things and deserves the vision to help them do it.

FIRST has always been about bringing the floor up, not bringing the ceiling down, if the program is to thrive it needs to find a way, either as a community or as an institution, to keep teams alive and allow them to thrive.

I want to support FIRST, and we have already begun making plans for contacting multiple congressional districts, but giving us a road map will not only make that process easier, it will give teams a vision for the future, goals to work for, and a plan worth working to stick around for.

Ditto

[FarmerJohn]

Remember that most events are paid for not by FIRST, but by sponsors. Your registration money doesn't go to running the event, it goes to FIRST. So if FIRST doesn't pay for the events, what do they pay for? Employees, but that still doesn't merit the amount of money they have in the bank.

In the economy of running robotics competitions your primary costs are going to be paying for the competition and paying for your organization employees, and that's about it. FIRST doesn't pay for the parts, or the mentors, or the volunteers. However if the main cost is paid for by sponsors, and the teams still pay you, that's just a constant stream of revenue incoming with the only outgoing cash going towards paying employees. And with the money FIRST makes from registration, I'm sure they have quite a bit left over after paying all of their employees. FIRST is among the most profitable non-profits out there.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

Remember that most events are paid for not by FIRST, but by sponsors. Your registration money doesn't go to running the event, it goes to FIRST. So if FIRST doesn't pay for the events, what do they pay for? Employees, but that still doesn't merit the amount of money they have in the bank.

In the economy of running robotics competitions your primary costs are going to be paying for the competition and paying for your organization employees, and that's about it. FIRST doesn't pay for the parts, or the mentors, or the volunteers. However if the main cost is paid for by sponsors, and the teams still pay you, that's just a constant stream of revenue incoming with the only outgoing cash going towards paying employees. And with the money FIRST makes from registration, I'm sure they have quite a bit left over after paying all of their employees. FIRST is among the most profitable non-profits out there.

The amount of money FIRST has in the bank is extremely appropriate for a non-profit of its size. Additionally, by no definition are they one of the most profitable non-profits. Please try to use facts. We have FIRST's financials; you should take a look.

[EricH]

FarmerJohn, back up your posts with evidence.

You've already found ONE of the many expenses FIRST has. Just one.

Overhead: Gotta pay the utility and facility maintenance bills at HQ.
Field Maintenance, Storage, and Transport (for HQ-owned fields, of which there are at LEAST a dozen): Per field, you need: a full set of field elements+spares, each and every year; any modifications to the guardrails needed, each and every year; repair of damaged pieces; storage for each field; transport for each field (1x semi per field); insurance on each field and its associated electronics. Now multiply that by a minimum of 12 (I believe the actual number is closer to 17). Maybe a new field gets built.
Key Volunteer Travel: Many of the key volunteers, particularly the ones that get trained in Manchester, get at least some of their travel paid for.
Production: FIRST pays a production company, at least for regionals.
Kit of Parts: Guess what, not everything in the KOP is a donation. Some is a discount, some has to be purchased at market cost. AND everything's gotta be sent out to teams.
CMP Costs: Don't think it's cheap to rent a convention center/football stadium for a weekend. Just a thought.
Team Grants: That's right, FIRST does give some teams grants.
FIRST Place: Guess what, this isn't quite overhead... It's in the HQ building, and is used as essentially an inspiration zone, but it needs some staff and maintenance too.
FTC, FLL, FLLJr.: Don't forget that these programs need funding too, for fields, venues, and staff to support them. That being said, their cost is lower due to smaller venues and smaller fields, but still needs to be accounted for.

I'm sure there's some I'm missing...

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by EricH

FarmerJohn, back up your posts with evidence.

You've already found ONE of the many expenses FIRST has. Just one.

Overhead: Gotta pay the utility and facility maintenance bills at HQ.
Field Maintenance, Storage, and Transport (for HQ-owned fields, of which there are at LEAST a dozen): Per field, you need: a full set of field elements+spares, each and every year; any modifications to the guardrails needed, each and every year; repair of damaged pieces; storage for each field; transport for each field (1x semi per field); insurance on each field and its associated electronics. Now multiply that by a minimum of 12 (I believe the actual number is closer to 17). Maybe a new field gets built.
Key Volunteer Travel: Many of the key volunteers, particularly the ones that get trained in Manchester, get at least some of their travel paid for.
Production: FIRST pays a production company, at least for regionals.
Kit of Parts: Guess what, not everything in the KOP is a donation. Some is a discount, some has to be purchased at market cost. AND everything's gotta be sent out to teams.
CMP Costs: Don't think it's cheap to rent a convention center/football stadium for a weekend. Just a thought.
Team Grants: That's right, FIRST does give some teams grants.
FIRST Place: Guess what, this isn't quite overhead... It's in the HQ building, and is used as essentially an inspiration zone, but it needs some staff and maintenance too.
FTC, FLL, FLLJr.: Don't forget that these programs need funding too, for fields, venues, and staff to support them. That being said, their cost is lower due to smaller venues and smaller fields, but still needs to be accounted for.

I'm sure there's some I'm missing...

IT, HR, PR, website services, video production, volunteer shirts/hats, showcase dinner, supplier summit, etc.

[Philip Arola]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

Remember that most events are paid for not by FIRST, but by sponsors. Your registration money doesn't go to running the event, it goes to FIRST. So if FIRST doesn't pay for the events, what do they pay for? Employees, but that still doesn't merit the amount of money they have in the bank.

In the economy of running robotics competitions your primary costs are going to be paying for the competition and paying for your organization employees, and that's about it. FIRST doesn't pay for the parts, or the mentors, or the volunteers. However if the main cost is paid for by sponsors, and the teams still pay you, that's just a constant stream of revenue incoming with the only outgoing cash going towards paying employees. And with the money FIRST makes from registration, I'm sure they have quite a bit left over after paying all of their employees. FIRST is among the most profitable non-profits out there.

I recommend looking up liquidity, and why it is essential for any organization. It's one of the reasons that if you can pay off a mortgage instantly (somehow), you won't necessarily do so. What if, in doing so, your savings dry up to next to nothing? That means no rainy day fund in the event of a disaster. FIRST, for example, needs it in the event a major event sponsor pulls out with no warning, and they need to fund something that was otherwise taken care of.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by EricH

Field Maintenance, Storage, and Transport (for HQ-owned fields, of which there are at LEAST a dozen): Per field, you need: a full set of field elements+spares, each and every year; any modifications to the guardrails needed, each and every year; repair of damaged pieces; storage for each field; transport for each field (1x semi per field); insurance on each field and its associated electronics. Now multiply that by a minimum of 12 (I believe the actual number is closer to 17). Maybe a new field gets built.

IIRC, FIRST owns 13 or 14 regional field perimeters and there are 25+ set of electronics and game-specific field elements (I quickly counted 12 district fields). Plus road cases. Plus their development sets at HQ and backups. It adds up.