MI is the best?

[Hot_Copper_Frog]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Pretty sure they were suggesting an additional event. What takes place now would continue to take place. You'd have the mix at the range of regional events. Their suggestion is to add an additional event using the past season as a prediction of who is going to be successful this season and give them an extra chance to play against strong teams and push themselves going into the season.

In theory, this would have a bit of a waterfall effect. These teams would compete, get ideas, improve before their regionals, and spread these improvements to other teams at the regionals. I'm not sure where it'd hurt anyone.

If we're talking within the context of the Michigan district system, this would be incredibly impractical. Highly competitive teams are attending two district events and often a third, and district championships/world championships based on qualification. For these "elite" teams we're discussing, that means five events in two months which is exhausting for the team and the robot. Trying to add an event somewhere in the beginning for only super awesome teams so they can get even more awesome seems a little redundant and unproductive.

[emeraldstorm]

As mentioned, what makes the FiM district so great is the depth. Obviously, there are many elite teams, but with a district the size and age of Michigan, it's hard not to find a successful or previously successful team.

Contrary to popular belief, most of the higher-performing teams are very classy on and off the field. A venture through the pits at MSC and several other FiM district events showed me that these teams that have had major successes through the years are usually the most generous and welcoming. Obviously experiences will differ, as you can catch any team under a high amount of stress at a competition.

As for the elitism and performance versus other regions, most of us in Michigan are very proud of our FIRST origins, but deeply frown upon arrogance and elitism. And as for the performance this year in divisions and Einstein, I'm surprised that people are complaining as much as they are that no more than 3 teams from FiM made it to Einstein. Having played with 3538, 217, and 5050, and other teams that made it to divisional finals such as 494 and 910, it was awesome to see the team depth of those that made it to the div finals/Einstein.

With 411+ teams compared to 2nd-most FIRST populous California with 158+, MI is guaranteed to statistically provide a higher quantity of experienced teams (and thus a deeper playing field) than any other district.

EDIT: IKE nailed it. I definitely agree with the mentor distribution point.

[Basel A]

Wanted to add to my post above, because the OP has a point. The top few teams in Michigan have done worse at the Championship in recent years versus how well the top few Michigan teams have done in the intermediate past. Additionally, Michigan districts are definitely weaker than they used to be, due to the huge growth in number of teams over the past few years. I'm not sure if those are related, but to me it makes logical sense that it could be a factor.

That said, I don't see any need for FiM to make any organizational changes to help up the game of the dozen or two Michigan teams playing at the highest level. This is the least of our problems. I think that if/when Michigan stops growing so fast, the competitiveness of Michigan districts will rebound nicely. We can help that along, not by segregating the great teams, but by allowing them to engage with and mentor struggling teams.

[natejo99]

Originally Posted by Cam_Team 2619

no chance for less experienced teams to compete with the pros

I agree. This can be extremely unfair, because I have personally witnessed Michigan rookies become captains/first pics at multiple events in their first year of competition. Take, for example, 4967 in 2014, or 5980 this year. They, and many other rookie/inexperienced teams deserved to compete with Michigan's best and brightest from previous years, but would have been denied a chance at competing in this event solely based on the age of their team. On the flip side of that, you have Michigan teams, who generally perform at an amazing level, that would be admitted to this event that might not be performing at that level that particular year. An example of this is 469. Great team, generally perform at an exceptional level, but this year was not their year.


However, I agree that it would be nice to play with Michigan's best teams in a given season. My alternate proposal is an offseason event with an application process based on that years season, similar to IRI. Whether that be a new event in the summer, or WMRI in the fall, it would be a great alternative.

[CloakAndDagger]

It also might be good to remember that because the season had a late start, The West Michigan district was populated with many more new teams than old, on account of week 4 taking place during Easter weekend. Off the top of my head, Strike Force and That One Team didn't make it. I'd see what happens next year, because in the past, and hopefully going foreward, The West Michigan district has been one of, if not the most competitive districts in the state

[CloakAndDagger]

I mean, they still weren't there...

In seriousness, something felt wrong about including them on that list, but I didn't know exactly what it was, like I said- it was off the top of my head.

I'll change it

[Citrus Dad]

I think this thread may be focusing on the correct perspective. Whether a given state or District is competitive is not important to the overall mission of FIRST or FRC. That mission is to improve educational STEM opportunities with an exciting project-based learning model. The more teams, the better, even if it dilutes competitive balance. Michigan is incredibly successful in this model. I, and probably many others, wish that we could be in regions with such problems.

The key to Michigan resuming its rightful place is "coopertion." The stronger teams should work to make the newer teams stronger. Share resources and experience. Educate them more, work together. This is what FIRST is supposed to be about--get to it.

[emeraldstorm]

Originally Posted by CloakAndDagger

I mean, they still weren't there...

In seriousness, something felt wrong about including them on that list, but I didn't know exactly what it was, like I said- it was off the top of my head.

I'll change it

You're fine.

[Hot_Copper_Frog]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

The key to Michigan resuming its rightful place is "coopertion." The stronger teams should work to make the newer teams stronger. Share resources and experience. Educate them more, work together. This is what FIRST is supposed to be about--get to it.

Trust me when I say this is already a priority for veteran teams in Michigan. We're going through some growing pains...getting 400+ FRC teams to a competitive level while keeping them sustainable is hard. Especially when that growth has been happening rapidly over a few years. But we're making pretty good progress, if I do say so myself.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by Hot_Copper_Frog

Trust me when I say this is already a priority for veteran teams in Michigan. We're going through some growing pains...getting 400+ FRC teams to a competitive level while keeping them sustainable is hard. Especially when that growth has been happening rapidly over a few years. But we're making pretty good progress, if I do say so myself.

At MSC, 13/48 alliance team members were 4000+ numbered teams (14 if you count 6086). While this is not equal representation on a percentage basis, it is a pretty good result. Especially when you consider that several teams that did not make MSC playoffs made World Championship playoffs.

Many of these new teams have a veteran team giving them a hand either directly, or indirectly (or more directly depending on perspective) by having former students help mentor/start new teams.

[TheBoulderite]

Just because few Michigan teams made it to Einsteins this year doesn't mean that the rest of the state is lagging behind. There are a lot of Michigan teams that were very, very good this year, and they should not be discounted or called "below average" because they didn't qualify for Einsteins. 67, 27, 1023, 2771, 1718, 2137, 1918, 2767, and 33 all built amazing and top-tier machines, even though they didn't win their divisions. I'm certain I've forgotten some, as I'm not completely familiar with Michigan teams. Even though they may not have made an appearance on the big stage, these teams were still some of the best in the world. Don't worry, I think your state still has a strong presence in the FRC.

[aspiece]

Originally Posted by Jim Schaddelee

Be from Michigan this is a little hard to say but, I think we need to step up our game.The idea that Michigan teams are the best might be bit arrogant. If I am correct we had zero teams in the finals this year, and only 2 on the Einstein field. Here are my thoughts on what is going on.
I believe in the past districts helped our teams by allowing us more matches and gain more experience but, this advantage is going away.Also based on the number of teams we have I think our districts are getting watered down. I can not tell you before the season we need to go to "X" district if we want to play with the best teams. And if I could I am not sure we could get in due to having home districts. which I totally understand is done to save teams travel expenses.
My point is this ,If you what to be the best you need to play with the best.and learn from the best.Currently we play with the best at State champs, but by then its to late to make improvements. So, Here is my ideas. How about a "super district" event early in the season were the best teams based on the previous year get a invite to come and play. How you pick the teams I don't know but it needs to be based on performance. I think FIM has done a great job in building a great number of team , Now that we have them how do we get better?

If you check with Bob from your team, I have talked to him about an event I am attempting to pull together for this summer to address this specifically. I have talked to MANY mentors across Michigan and everyone is on board.

Pretty much every team I know that went to the World Championship from Michigan made it to the elimination rounds at the World Championships. I do not feel Michigan is getting any worse, I feel Michigan is getting EVEN better.

To prove my point, you can look at the variety of teams winning the Chairmans Award. There were three brand new teams winning the Chairmans Award this year and doing awesome things on their teams. Competitively, we continue to have the best State Championship Event in the World. I have seen teams that did not travel to the World Championships that could have won a regional in another area. Especially, after the extensive scouting our team did this year. I would argue that michigan is still the powerhouse it has always been and we are leading FIRST into a new era of competitive robotics. The growth in Michigan is tremendoue due to unwaivering support from all teams to start teams, mentor teams, volunteer and just plain be awesome.

As for a Super District, I predict we will begin to continue to spread into possibly another teir of competition similar to the Sports Model with 64 team regionals in the future. This is way more feasible with the number of venues that could support this size regional. Then we would have a model similar to sports with District (32-40 teams) -> Regional (64 Team) -> States 102 Team.

So, coming from someone in Michigan who is really excited for the growth and will continue to support teams in my area to get better, I think we have a bright future and I look forward to working with other states to adopt this model that has been working tremendously.

[aspiece]

Originally Posted by Jim Schaddelee

Be from Michigan this is a little hard to say but, I think we need to step up our game.The idea that Michigan teams are the best might be bit arrogant. If I am correct we had zero teams in the finals this year, and only 2 on the Einstein field. Here are my thoughts on what is going on.
I believe in the past districts helped our teams by allowing us more matches and gain more experience but, this advantage is going away.Also based on the number of teams we have I think our districts are getting watered down. I can not tell you before the season we need to go to "X" district if we want to play with the best teams. And if I could I am not sure we could get in due to having home districts. which I totally understand is done to save teams travel expenses.
My point is this ,If you what to be the best you need to play with the best.and learn from the best.Currently we play with the best at State champs, but by then its to late to make improvements. So, Here is my ideas. How about a "super district" event early in the season were the best teams based on the previous year get a invite to come and play. How you pick the teams I don't know but it needs to be based on performance. I think FIM has done a great job in building a great number of team , Now that we have them how do we get better?

Another thing to consider is that all of the powerhouse teams have lost Outstanding mentors from their teams that significantly affects their ability to be great. Some teams have a deeper bench than others.

[hardcopi]

I might have a different perspective than most. Our area has a ton of teams but is a very small area. It is great that pretty much every school in my county has access to being on a team. (my team will accept anyone who doesn't have a school team, so we pick up the small private schools).

The problem is the grants that Michigan has given to get the teams started are starting to dry up going forward. We have ended up with a ton of teams, but are (once again at least in my area) starting to run out of sponsor organizations. In 2014 we had a budget of nearly $50,000 and were able to expand nicely, but this past year we were down to around $15,000. We are competing on locally with more and more teams for the same funds. If there is a drop off in Michigan's competitiveness then this might be part of it.

Another part of it could be the sheer number of high numbered teams at each event. How many times do Michigan teams end up with an all rookie alliance? It can make for exciting times, but it can also skew results kind of dramatically in some cases.

[Koko Ed]

Michigan seems to be in transition this year. MSC was very young as a lot of MSC veterans didn't make the cut. This is actually a good thing.