Movement Towards Video Review

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by pmangels17

But that still doesn't apply for 99% of fouls (common fouls, and the 99% isn't an exact statistic). Almost always, you can't retroactively go back and call fouls on a player in basketball, unless the foul is extremely egregious. If you're retroactively calling common fouls in basketball, then the basketball game is going to take all day.

I'm not saying to do that, I'm just saying there are video replays. FIRST would have to specify what they would use replays for.

[jee7s]

Originally Posted by R.C.

I'm not saying to do that, I'm just saying there are video replays. FIRST would have to specify what they would use replays for.

So what can and cannot be reviewable?

In college football, it's things related to possession, side lines, goal line, and end line (including goal posts). That's it. You can't review holding, pass interference, the cheap shot on the line, or Ndamukong Suh stepping on your face.

Looking to FRC...

Well, on the definitely "can" be reviewed list would be scores that were missed. Things like a boulder being stuck in the chute, a defense cross being missed, bad frisbee count (2013), etc.

On the definitely "can't" be reviewed list are most fouls. Particularly any foul where you get a warning before the penalty, like pinning. To retroactively invoke fouls is unfair to the team that receives the penalty, as others have posted here.

To the OP's second post: You don't want us to focus on your particular situation yet you use it as your sole example for establishing video review. Video review wouldn't have helped your situation and would not have "eliminated moments like these".

I therefore fail to see a compelling argument to implement video review. QED.

[natejo99]

Personally, I think implementing video review would cause more problems than it would solve. If a team is pinning, but the refs aren't calling it, then the drive team is under the impression that what they are doing is perfectly legal and has no reason to stop. Implementing video review and fouling that team after the match is unfair in my opinion. I understand that refs calls are not always 100% fair, but I don't think implementing video review is the way to solve that problem.

[thehotsauceman]

Originally Posted by natejo99

Personally, I think implementing video review would cause more problems than it would solve. If a team is pinning, but the refs aren't calling it, then the drive team is under the impression that what they are doing is perfectly legal and has no reason to stop. Implementing video review and fouling that team after the match is unfair in my opinion. I understand that refs calls are not always 100% fair, but I don't think implementing video review is the way to solve that problem.

Any ideas on what could be used then if anything?

[natejo99]

Originally Posted by thehotsauceman

Any ideas on what could be used then if anything?

Unfortunately I don't have any at the moment. Usually I like to provide some sort of alternative when voicing a disagreement about a solution to an obvious problem. I'll give it some thought and post anything I come up with here. I agree that some sort of change should be made, but I'm not sure how to go about that change quite yet. I'll get back to you.

[apache8080]

Originally Posted by thehotsauceman

Any ideas on what could be used then if anything?

If you look at most sports common fouls are not usually reviewable so in the case of FRC something like a pin shouldn't be reviewable. What should be reviewable are things like assists in Aerial Assist, barrier crosses in Stronghold, and any penalties that would result in yellow or red cards. These types of things have score impacts and are very easy to review. The problem with reviewing something like pinning is that it is very subjective and would take too long. If FIRST were to implement a replay type system, it shouldn't be used in qualifications as it would take too long but instead they can give each alliance 3 challenges for the elimination rounds. At championship teams should be given 3 challenges in their divisor playoffs and then another 3 challenges for Einstein. I think this system would solve a lot of the missed calls in important elimination matches.

I also think that referees should not handle scoring and should only focus on calling fouls. FRC is the only sport were the ref has to look for fouls and keep track of the score at the same time, that is it too much for one person. They should have score keepers that handle scoring and refs who handle fouls.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by apache8080

FRC is the only sport were the ref has to look for fouls and keep track of the score at the same time

Baseball umpires call runs at home plate.
Football refs call touchdowns, field goals, and safeties.

All sports, the Ref calls when a score has happened or not.

In FRC, the Ref's call some scores (crossings), but they don't keep track of the score (FMS does that).

I also think that referees should not handle scoring and should only focus on calling fouls.

IMHO, there are some things that can be handled by Field Stewards, like they did with Recycle Rush. I think there should have been Field Stewards doing boulder counting in the Castle, and letting Ref's know when they are at 6.

They had Ref's watching crossings, so having a Field Steward do it won't improve anything, other than freeing up a Ref to watch for fouls.

IMHO, FRC should have added one more ref, and done 1-on-1 ref'ing with one ref watching one robot for the entire match. Maybe do it during Practice Matches to see how it goes. The Ref won't miss a crossing (although still has a problem with sight lines for the Sally Port). Ref won't miss the start of a Pin (although the actual start can be subjective, but it should happen more promptly). The Ref for the robot that causes a foul enters it into the panel.

[apache8080]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Baseball umpires call runs at home plate.
Football refs call touchdowns, field goals, and safeties.

All sports, the Ref calls when a score has happened or not.

In FRC, the Ref's call some scores (crossings), but they don't keep track of the score (FMS does that).



IMHO, there are some things that can be handled by Field Stewards, like they did with Recycle Rush. I think there should have been Field Stewards doing boulder counting in the Castle, and letting Ref's know when they are at 6.

They had Ref's watching crossings, so having a Field Steward do it won't improve anything, other than freeing up a Ref to watch for fouls.

IMHO, FRC should have added one more ref, and done 1-on-1 ref'ing with one ref watching one robot for the entire match. Maybe do it during Practice Matches to see how it goes. The Ref won't miss a crossing (although still has a problem with sight lines for the Sally Port). Ref won't miss the start of a Pin (although the actual start can be subjective, but it should happen more promptly). The Ref for the robot that causes a foul enters it into the panel.

I meant more like basketball or hockey I which majority of the refs job is to call fouls not scoring. In football the ref may signal that a touchdown or field goal is scored but in 2013 they made all scoring plays reviewed by a replay official. This means that the actual scoring is done by somebody other than the refs on the field.

I think it would make sense to have a ref per robot and then a score keeper per robot. This would require more volunteers but I think the FRC community would be able to support that.

[headlight]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Baseball umpires call runs at home plate.
Football refs call touchdowns, field goals, and safeties.

All sports, the Ref calls when a score has happened or not.

In FRC, the Ref's call some scores (crossings), but they don't keep track of the score (FMS does that).

Sure, however those are all sports where the scoring condition takes place under significant interference from the opposing team or simultaneous actions from multiple parties. Most scoring conditions in FRC games are most similar to basketball, where all that matters is the accomplishment of a single condition by a single player. I might be wrong but I can't think of a basketball game where a basket wasn't awarded because the ref wasn't watching or because the hoop sensor didn't trip. The closest it comes is a player missing the buzzer during a buzzer beater.

[apache8080]

Originally Posted by headlight

Sure, however those are all sports where the scoring condition takes place under significant interference from the opposing team or simultaneous actions from multiple parties. Most scoring conditions in FRC games are most similar to basketball, where all that matters is the accomplishment of a single condition by a single player. I might be wrong but I can't think of a basketball game where a basket wasn't awarded because the ref wasn't watching or because the hoop sensor didn't trip. The closest it comes is a player missing the buzzer during a buzzer beater.

You are absolutely right. In basketball they will even review a shot to make sure it is a 3-pointer and if isn't then they will retroactively change the points. I think if FRC were to implement a review system they should follow the NBA and NHL.

[gblake]

I like some reviews. Others, not so much.

One kind of review I like is when someone performs a review/search to look for an existing on-target thread before starting a new one.

In the case of this discussion, just a few weeks ago this topic was covered rather thoroughly here. Should we move the discussion back to there so that records of our thoughts are better organized, and so that we reduce duplicated effort?

Or perhaps we should re-open this 2005 thread ?

I haven't noticed any new insights in this thread yet (but, hey, I am only human, maybe I missed one?).

I'm not saying that the topic is dead. I am saying that anyone wanting to make real headway advancing their arguments should add to what has already been discussed. Let's not doom ourselves to repeating the past.

There are plenty of sound technical, game design, and implementation suggestions and objections in the past thread(s). Instead of (re)(re)(re)(re)...discovering them; how about reading, digesting, summarizing, and building upon them?

Blake

PS: It's obvious from the (Kennedy assassination) Zapruder film that a bullet drives President Kennedy's head backward when he is shot ... UNTIL, you carefully analyze the footage frame-by-frame, and notice that in roughly the time between two frames a bullet's initial impact drives his head forward, and then during the next few frames his head recoils (relatively slowly) backwards. The devil is in the details.

[Karthik]

Honestly, I'd just like it if they told us what penalties had been called and who they were on.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Honestly, I'd just like it if they told us what penalties had been called and who they were on.

Seconded.

The head ref on Hopper called fouls on 1678 and 971 during our two ball auto routines throughout the weekend. When approached by our teams in the question box, the head ref would not tell our students what foul they had called.

It was a bummer.

-Mike

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Seconded.

The head ref on Hopper called fouls on 1678 and 971 during our two ball auto routines throughout the weekend. When approached by our teams in the question box, the head ref would not tell our students what foul they had called.

It was a bummer.

-Mike

This was quite annoying, what makes me laugh is 971 dropped down their intake to prove they weren't over the line. Wonder what happened when auto started?

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Honestly, I'd just like it if they told us what penalties had been called and who they were on.

Agreed.

The Ref's have radios. I have thought there should be a scribe. When a foul is called, the Ref calls out the color, robot number, and foul. The scribe then writes it down. Maybe even with a time mark (countdown clock).

I know, one more volunteer (probably with Ref level training). But, it keeps the ref from having to take their eyes off the field to write down the information. Maybe add one more ref to the team, and scribe is one of the positions they rotate through.