Strategy during Final at Einstein

[bam-bam]

If 3015 and 1405 didn't play defense, they would have likely lost to Archimedes... in quarterfinals. Defense was definitely the right call, and I'm very impressed that 2056 had the foresight to pick up 1405.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by bam-bam

Defense was definitely the right call, and I'm very impressed that 2056 had the foresight to pick up 1405.

I would hypothesize that 3015 had something to do with it. Both 3015 and 1405 competed at the Finger Lakes Regional, where 1405's defense skill helped their #5 alliance with 20 and 639 upset the #4 alliance, the #1 alliance, and the #3 alliance. The #1 and #3 alliances definitely could outscore #5, but 1405 gave them the defensive edge to take home banners. 1405 plays superb defense, and the Tesla #1 alliance was lucky to be able to pick them up.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

I would hypothesize that 3015 had something to do with it. Both 3015 and 1405 competed at the Finger Lakes Regional, where 1405's defense skill helped their #5 alliance with 20 and 639 upset the #4 alliance, the #1 alliance, and the #3 alliance. The #1 and #3 alliances definitely could outscore #5, but 1405 gave them the defensive edge to take home banners. 1405 plays superb defense, and the Tesla #1 alliance was lucky to be able to pick them up.

2056/1690 actually announced both picks simultaneously, so there wasn't any lobbying from 3015 (as far as I know). In fact, they were some of the fastest decisions in the Tesla selections overall

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by BigJ

2056/1690 actually announced both picks simultaneously, so there wasn't any lobbying from 3015 (as far as I know). In fact, they were some of the fastest decisions in the Tesla selections overall

Not uncommon on the #1 alliance. In Hopper we had 364 and 2990 as side by side picks on our draft list so it was easy.

[Electronica1]

The 3 team offence was the right strategy in my opinion since it minimized the risk of penalties. The only change I would have made was to put a taller defense near the low bar. The blue alliance's human player was able to get a decent number of boulders all the way to the opposite side of the field in some of the matches by going over the ramparts.

[LeelandS]

Originally Posted by Electronica1

The 3 team offence was the right strategy in my opinion since it minimized the risk of penalties.

This was actually the reason our team felt so comfortable playing defense. Oliver, our driver, is an exceptionally smart driver, with a great skill for foresight and controlling the field as he wants. It was his knowledge of the rulebook and awareness that kept our penalties to a minimum.

At Finger Lakes, where we were our alliances defensive robot, we drew 2 penalties in the quarterfinals, and then we did not draw an additional penalty afterwards. And those penalty-less matches were pitting us against the likes of 5254, 2791, 3044, 4930 and 340.

In playoff matches at champs where our robot was fielded, our alliance never drew more than 1-2 penalties. In any match where we did draw penalties, the opposing alliance did not successfully capture the tower, so I believe one might argue that our defense contributed more to our alliance than against it. The only matches where this streak falls through, ironically, are the final Einstein matches.

The penalty we drew whilst in the 3rd final match on Einstein was hard to avoid, as Oliver had no visibility of the courtyard referee (a recurring problem for him all throughout the event). As many have noted, it was a tough call by the referee to begin with, coupled with the fact he was having information relayed to him instead of seeing it with his own eyes, it would have been quite a feat for him to have been aware of the whole situation. But hey, that's the risk we took.

In the end, it couldn't have been any closer. As far as I'm concerned, all 8 teams deserve to be world champions. It just so happens that the record books with not have our alliances names in them. It was a disappointing loss, especially given the fact that it was such a crazy alliance to work with (3 different countries represented, and allied with another team from our region). It would have been a good story to tell, but nevertheless. Congrats to the champs, they were hard fought matches and I'm happy with our season in the end.

Edit:
In response to our choice of strategy, 3015 was constantly used throughout eliminations. In our first QF match, our line-up was 2056-1690-3015, and our alliance ended up putting in 250pts. It was quite a spectacle, but we found that that match was a "perfect scenario" and difficult to repeat. Essentially, 3015 with their superior shooting (to us at least) and being a good defense robot as well, was our advance team, and was fielded in the first match of each round. If it was found that we couldn't brute force our way against an alliance, then we took the field. We knew that if it came down to 2v2, 2056 and 1690 could overpower almost any other duo, so all we had to do was take our one robots worth of shots, and that sealed the deal all the way to the finals.

[throwaway]

I was surprised that 330-2481-120-1086 didn't employ much defense against 2056-1690. OP in particular was really vulnerable as they were doing mid-court shots that they could not have gotten away with under heavy defense. Had their been defense played against OP I think their ability to score would've been dramatically inhibited and I doubt the finals would've gone to 3 matches.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by throwaway

I was surprised that 330-2481-120-1086 didn't employ much defense against 2056-1690. OP in particular was really vulnerable as they were doing mid-court shots that they could not have gotten away with under heavy defense. Had their been defense played against OP I think their ability to score would've been dramatically inhibited and I doubt the finals would've gone to 3 matches.

There were discussions, but it's hard to argue with the results from Saturday.

[FIXIT]

Team 1405 played awesome defense and really slowed us down. It could have been anyone's victory in the end. It was one of the greatest battles of all time. Fortunately for us we won! It could have gone either way. Both alliances were fantastic and did not disappoint the crowd.

Congratulations to everyone for a hard fought and memorable showing on the final Unified Einstein World Championship. What a great way to end an era!

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by throwaway

I was surprised that 330-2481-120-1086 didn't employ much defense against 2056-1690. OP in particular was really vulnerable as they were doing mid-court shots that they could not have gotten away with under heavy defense. Had their been defense played against OP I think their ability to score would've been dramatically inhibited and I doubt the finals would've gone to 3 matches.

As we've seen before, OP can basically shoot from anywhere. Their percentage may have decreased, but that's no guarantee, especially over such a short sample size. In that situation, it was probably better to let both 120 and 1086 play offense, which is a more comfortable role for them based on their prior experience.

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

There were discussions, but it's hard to argue with the results from Saturday.

This pretty much sums it up.

[throwaway]

Originally Posted by TDav540

As we've seen before, OP can basically shoot from anywhere. Their percentage may have decreased, but that's no guarantee, especially over such a short sample size. In that situation, it was probably better to let both 120 and 1086 play offense, which is a more comfortable role for them based on their prior experience.

That's not true. OP essentially lost their ability to do outerworks shots after GTR East, if you watch Waterloo, Windsor, and Tesla that's very apparent. And while obviously the 330-2481-120 won my argument is that it would've been a much easier victory for them if they had use defense against OP.

[wjordan]

I am still confused as to why 1690 went undefended for the majority of Einstein. In the matches in which they faced defense at Tesla, their offensive output dropped tremendously.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

I actually do believe defense was the right way to go for Tesla alliance. However, I do agree that overall, triple offense was the bread and butter for most Einstein teams. For one, it's just a lot more consistent. Sure the scores can vary by a couple boulders but when you dedicated one of your robots to defense, that defensive robot regardless of how high of skill they are, can go from shutdown defense to not very effective at all. I think for the sake of consistency and confidence in scoring is why most Einstein matches were shoot outs. It's sort of why I think the game this year falls a little short at the highest level. That being said, I think Tesla realized throughout the course of Einstein matches though, that they were unfavored in a shootout and switched it up.

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by throwaway

That's not true. OP essentially lost their ability to do outerworks shots after GTR East, if you watch Waterloo, Windsor, and Tesla that's very apparent. And while obviously the 330-2481-120 won my argument is that it would've been a much easier victory for them if they had use defense against OP.

Regardless, you're still asking 1086 and 120 to come out of their comfort zone and play a defensive role. While I'm not saying they couldn't do that, they definitely weren't used to it. In addition, while OP's outerworks shots definitely weren't the same, they still featured an accurate batter shot.

While we will probably still have our own opinions, if defense was going to be played on 2056 and 1690, it was more worthwhile to do so in the neutral zone, as previously mentioned. At least in my mind.

[Hoover]

Kudo to civilized banter; I thought it might be difficult, but this is reassuring. Nice input from teams involved so thanks. Even if we had been there we wouldn't have been able to view all the division brackets at once so there is not much back story of Einstein alliances.

Looking up some of the stats, it is hard to make the case that switching to an offensive lineup might have helped. The first thing I noted was that Carver's OPR's were significantly less than Tesla's going into Einstein. And no wonder, Carver's was the second seed alliance. (more on this later)

So from these numbers, it is harder to believe that Carver could keep up with Tesla. Therefore, defense had a significant impact on the matches.

Carver Seed 2 OPR
The Beach Bot 330 55.94
Roboteers 2481 50.96
Cleveland's Team 120 43.79
Blue Cheese 1086 43.07

Tesla Seed 1
OP Robotics 2056 68.08
Orbit 1690 69.8
Ranger Robotics 3015 36.48
Finney Falcons 1405 25.91

Speaking of OPR's it is notable that in most division the top two teams offensive rating was past the knee of the curve. Except for Newton but this has already been covered heavily on CD... but the notable thing with Newton is that almost all of those teams were upset even before Einstein. Then Newton was shut out of Einstein immediately.

However, it is more a question to my mind that more divisions are not like Newton was. Are high scoring robots on that end of the spectrum that rare, that in each division only 2 or 3 stand out even on a national level? I expect this in the districts, but nationally it is harder to rationalize.