Let's hear it for the Refs !

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by nathanwalters

If refs don't want their calls analyzed publicly, perhaps they shouldn't be making said calls in front of thousands of people.

This is exactly the toxic mentality the OP was hoping to avoid. When you have this mentality, you provide the ref with two options: be perfect or don't volunteer. As the first is an impossible task, you've just eliminated every ref.

[TJP123]

Originally Posted by connor.worley

The inspiration happens because it is a competition. When you mess up on the competitive aspects, you mess up the inspiration.

You forgot to add, "It's all about the robot."

[Jbkerns]

Another ref chiming in. As my first year as a referee it was definitely interesting to be on the other side of the table. I was a driver when I was a student, and now I occasionally drive coach (depending on the season). This year I happened to be both a ref and drive coach.

It is understandable that people won't go out of their way to post positive opinions. That takes effort and motivation that you lack when compared to when you are angry about something. I'm not surprised that the number of posts that are criticizing referees outnumber the posts thanking us by a large margin. But, I will shout out the teams and mentors at CHS district events. Going off of the posts here, you ALL showed us love that was scarce in other places. Unlike some of the posters here, I was thanked numerous times while wearing the zebra stripes, and drive teams were all awesome to work with.

We are all human. Referees are trained for their roles, but that doesn't make them immune to messing up. It will happen. I refereed something like 247 matches over the season. To think that I didn't make a mistake in one of those matches would be foolish. Not only that, but it is my first year reffing. I know I made mistakes, and I learned from them.

Overall, the reactions here on the forums are expected. The only thing that I have issue with the jump between complaining about some calls, and calling all reffing this year bad. Yes, specific instances may have been questionable. Yes, people have the right to complain about us. But, when you look at the sheer amount of matches that went on, and then compare the amount of calls that are complained about, it paints a VERY big difference on how "bad" reffing was this year.

And again, shout outs to the teams at the events I reffed at. You were the definition of Gracious Professionals, and made my day with your comments.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Keep in mind when using the question box that there is very little time between matches. You are going to get one chance to ask your question. Think through your question. Ask a clear question to get a clear answer. You are not going to get time for many follow up questions. If it is a rule question it doesn't hurt to have a copy of the rule available. Be tactful. Don't come across as if you know the rules better than the referee. (Even if you think you do ).

I will admit that as the rule expert for the team, I had the whole game manual (all but section 1) printed out booklet style, separated by section, and folded in my back pockets for the whole regional (I had been going over the rules quite a bit the week before, so I had the game rules somewhat memorized already). And it did come in handy a few times (mainly when we needed to look up a rule and my iPad with the manual downloaded on it was back in the pit and we were qued for a match).

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by maxnz

I will admit that as the rule expert for the team, I had the whole game manual (all but section 1) printed out booklet style, separated by section, and folded in my back pockets for the whole regional (I had been going over the rules quite a bit the week before, so I had the game rules somewhat memorized already). And it did come in handy a few times (mainly when we needed to look up a rule and my iPad with the manual downloaded on it was back in the pit and we were qued for a match).

The refs at KC did this too, along with pulling up the q&a occasionally on my phone.

[Collin Stiers]

I want to say that I think the refs I interacted with this season were truly wonderful and hard working, reffing this game is a really hard job, things move fast and there are a lot of robots and actions to track. Often when making a call at the end of the match refs have to rely on their memory to look back, which is imperfect, and they have to make the best calls they can. There can be cases where there is no "right" or "wrong" call, it all depends on how a specific event is remembered and interpreted.

Given all that I think that refs work very hard make the best calls they can in a high speed game, and I think they did a wonderful job.

There were many times this season I used the question box to talk to the head ref, and they could have gotten annoyed at my repeated visits, but instead I felt that they really valued what I was saying and took it into consideration, and they gave me an open and honest explanation of their call. I think this interaction helped the all of us better understand the factors involved and helped the refs to make better calls, and me to avoid penalties and drive better

One final thing, it seems like we only ever hear about the refs when people think they screwed up, perhaps we should do more to recognize the refs who do good, so with that in mind, three cheers to the refs who volunteered in the chesapeake district, great job guys.

[Michael Corsetto]

Being critical of referee quality and thankful for referee volunteerism are not mutually exclusive.

I have good relationships with many people on the volunteer reffing crews for all of our local FRC events. I make a point of thanking them for volunteering for this thankless job, usually with a hand shake and a "thank you for volunteering your time."

Most of the issues I see in FRC reffing come down to training (and sometimes game design). This is similar to the primary issues I see with FRC inspecting. I typically send my concerns to FIRST HQ, as I already have with some of my observations from CMP 2016, in hopes that training will improve in the coming years.

Big thanks to all the event volunteers, referees included.

-Mike

[Richard Wallace]

I volunteered as a referee at two district events this year, for the same reason EricH gave -- a VC asked me to, because they were short handed. So after the robots were all inspected, I put on stripes.

BTW, the referee certification process is harder and more time consuming (for me) that the one for robot inspectors. Also, inspecting naturally includes time for reflecting on decisions, while refereeing emphatically does not. I am much more comfortable as an inspector.

Carolyn Grace made the most important points in this thread, I think, when she wrote about all of the avenues available for provide constructive feedback for volunteers. VCs want and seek this feedback, and getting it helps them make future events better. Getting that feedback is actually part of their job, and not an interruption.

If I make an error as a volunteer, I hope someone like Mike Corsetto will come let me know. Let the VC know also, but I want to correct my problem ASAP.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by rich2202

IMHO, each seasoned team (teams at least a few years old) should be required to put a Mentor through Ref Training. All the Refs would be required to ref a few practice matches. It would give the Head Ref the option to sub-out a Ref if a Ref is not up to the challenge. The trained Mentor gives the Team a different perspective on the game.

I think teams that feel that their season or their inspiration has been slighted by a poor call by the refs should start looking at how to supply more refs or volunteers to the event or competition events in general BEFORE they bring out complaints of bad calls. Also, a long term solution to the problem of not having an abundance of refs at events might be for Chairman's Judges to start looking at which teams are providing mentors to be trained and volunteer as refs or other volunteer positions during competition season. If every team hoping to win a RCA supplied one mentor to be a ref at the event, I think the event coordinators would have a much easier time making sure the event is staffed by enthusiastic and competent refs, and the teams might leave with a better experience.

Just my opinions, feel free to make them your own.

[Roboshant]

This game was a very hard game for refs, and their hard work and simple graciousness for volunteering should be commended. Compared to last year, where most of the reffing could be done after the completion of the match, this year is very fast moving with many game objectives and elements.

I can definitely sympathize with referring under these conditions, especially for lesser experienced refs, as I myself have reffed for games with much less complexity in VEX. Competitors also need to understand the fact that refs are not perfect, and most likely will not be able to remember what happened 54 seconds into the game in the opposite corner of the field. No matter how trained, refs will not become superhuman omniscient beings. The total amount of mistakes they make in relation to the total amount of matches is probably less than the amount we make in our daily lives.

Now let's face it, we need to something to eliminate bad calls. The problem is it can be very hard, even for trained refs, to do this. I believe this is where video review comes in. I would love to see how video review, with obvious regulation, would work on reducing the pressure on refs as well as the reduction of bad calls.

Let's hear it for the Refs!!! Thank You!

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

If I make an error as a volunteer, I hope someone like Mike Corsetto will come let me know. Let the VC know also, but I want to correct my problem ASAP.

Richard,

This sort of approach is very admirable.

My favorite Key Volunteers have this same approach. I've had many positive, constructive conversations with Head Refs and LRI's regarding rule interpretations. Not necessarily regarding any specific match (this is not my place), but regarding rules in general and how teams can expect these key individuals to make calls. Often, I find that I might be aware of a Q/A or something else that this individual is not aware of, and we work together to improve the overall event experience.

On the flip side, I have less respect for KV's who hide behind their role and refuse input from participants at the event (through appropriate avenues, of course).

-Mike

[spydan]

Originally Posted by rich2202

IMHO, each seasoned team (teams at least a few years old) should be required to put a Mentor through Ref Training. All the Refs would be required to ref a few practice matches. It would give the Head Ref the option to sub-out a Ref if a Ref is not up to the challenge. The trained Mentor gives the Team a different perspective on the game.

I think it would also help if all teams read the rules... Then you would not only have Mentor understanding, but Student understanding as well.

[headlight]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

... Would you say "The driver of team #### really messed up and it cost us the match"-- no because that would be attacking them personally, even though you did not name them...

This is a poor comparison. You don't call out poor performance of alliance partners because badly performing teams are part of the game. Sometimes you select a bad team, and sometimes that team makes mistakes, but as long as their actions are within the confines of the game (or even if they aren't) it is still part of the way the game is played.


This is different from the referees, whose job is to enforce the rules as they are written, the referees aren't a team, they aren't a player, they're supposed to be an unbiased entity, not play the game, they're basically an extension of the field. So when the referees seem like they're influencing the game too much it gets frustrating. I accept that I have to worry about the performance of my alliance partners, I shouldn't have to check to make sure a referee is watching before performing a crossing.


I really appreciate the job the referees do, its a difficult and necessary position to fill, and one that seems to consistently get the short end of the stick by the procedures and resources they are given. I'm sure many of them second guess their calls on a regular basis and want to do the best job they can. I hope that in the future they can be given the resources they need to succeed.


If the referees continue to be required to spread their attention over too much field, it is likely that teams will begin to adopt strategies to get referees to pay attention to their robot even earlier in the season. Like the glass banging during 2014.

[connor.worley]

Originally Posted by TJP123

You forgot to add, "It's all about the robot."

Do you have an actual rebuttal? FIRST isn't all about the robot, but the point still stands that if you mess up the competition you mess up the inspiration.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I hear from many volunteers who were refs say they no longer want to ref because of what is said about them. Keep it up guys in no time flat you'll drive them all out then you'll really have something to cry about.

Now, we know that Ed won't volunteer to ref, the queuers will be crying about that. And we know that all these people complaining about the reffing won't volunteer to ref.* So, who is going to take on one of the toughest volunteer roles in FRC?

*"Can't handle being under your own microscope" being the reason... PROVE ME WRONG, please!