Waterjet vs. Manual Build Process?

[Xifilzer]

Our team just recently completed our 3rd FRC Season, as a team we have adequate funding, a drill press, bandsaw, belt sanders, the whole ryobi handtool layout, dremels, etc. So far we have always used the machines in our shop to make our parts and only waterjetted or welded very few components such as sideplates (on a drivetrain).

For next year we are in a debate whether we move towards waterjetting more parts, and then assembling it, or if we stick to our current means which does also involve CAD before and during the build process.

The reason this debate exists is because we believe that waterjetting will give us more precise parts which will help us build a better robot, which means more awards, winning, which enables our team to get more money, have a better reputation, etc. But on the other hand we want to keep our current method because it allows kids to get close and personal with tools and encounter problems and learn really deep and intricate concepts when it comes to why mechanisms work, forces, etc that simply cannot be taught via simply assembling a robot. We also believe that our current method is more fun, even though the final product may not be something similar to the high quality of a NASA team.

Please give us your input regardless of which side you stand on, we would like to hear whatever you guys have to say!

Thank you for your time,
Sincerely,
Xifilzer

[macman828]

Originally Posted by Xifilzer

Our team just recently completed our 3rd FRC

The reason this debate exists is because we believe that waterjetting will give us more precise parts which will help us build a better robot, which means more awards, winning, which enables our team to get more money, have a better reputation, etc. But on the other hand we want to keep our current method because it allows kids to get close and personal with tools and encounter problems and learn really deep and intricate concepts when it comes to why mechanisms work, forces, etc that simply cannot be taught via simply assembling a robot. We also believe that our current method is more fun, even though the final product may not be something similar to the high quality of a NASA team.

The fact you are having this debate within the team is wonderful. What I expect you will find if you go with more waterjet parts is that you will find something else to have fun, teach kids on. Your robot isn't going to be just flat pieces of metal. it has to come together. You'll need to tap many holes, or riveting, you'll end up bending metal too. You will not run out of fun things to do and new things to learn. Either way good luck!


I'm sure CD will be filled with comments on awards / NASA teams etc. etc. just focus on what your kids want to learn, what they will have fun with.

[RoboChair]

Buy a CNC router.

Zero regrets.

That is all I have to say.

[ebarker]

There are merits to making parts by hand and to CNC techniques.

I think for our team, the approach we will stick with is to have team members spend time in the off-season learning how to hand make parts, and then during the latter part of the off-season and into the build season, then transition into designing parts in CAD and then water jetting them.

I can tell you from experience that if I owned a business that made stuff I'd have the employees CAD the part, then CNC it. It is a much faster and more accurate process ( if the CNC machine is available ). But again I think hand made parts are more of a rite of passage and learning. But not good for production work. Brackets that would take us an hour to make and not be accurate, we can CAD and cut in minutes, perfectly.

For fun, maybe your team may want to take both approaches simultaneously.... making handmade parts and CNC parts, in parallel. The resource is available to you and your team. If you want to follow up to learn how to access this resource, send me an email at edbarker@kennesaw.edu

It would be fun and educational to make parts both ways. I think it makes your student a better engineer.

This summer we will announce some workshops at KSU where you can come in and give it a try.

EDIT: right now you can bend parts on this brake Hopefully we will get a 50 ton CNC brake soon.

Good Luck with your team !!

Ed

[InFlight]

For teams that use extensive CAD, water jetting is the way to go. You will have identical parts for your competive and practice robots. You can also have spare parts that will fit exactly.

Cadding the entire robot takes time in the 6 week build season. Rapid manufacturing balances out this initial investment in time.

We still use a lathe & mill to manufacture drivetrain parts, and intake rollers etc. so we have lots of opportunities to teach interested students those skills.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by Xifilzer

But on the other hand we want to keep our current method because it allows kids to get close and personal with tools and encounter problems and learn really deep and intricate concepts when it comes to why mechanisms work, forces, etc that simply cannot be taught via simply assembling a robot. We also believe that our current method is more fun, even though the final product may not be something similar to the high quality of a NASA team.

My experience with precision manufacturing performed by out-of-house sponsors has been the opposite of your worry. By allocating the time that you spend on fabricating your parts elsewhere, you can teach these things even more effectively. You can prototype more in-depth, gaining a deeper understanding of your mechanisms and exploring more concepts, without the looming quality constraints of a competition-ready robot. You can explore mechanisms which demand more precision than you can achieve by hand. You can perform detailed analysis in CAD that you wouldn't otherwise. You get the fun of super-rapid assembly sessions once all the parts get back, and the fun of seeing industrial-grade tools in action if you can arrange a tour with your sponsor.

The bottom line is, real engineers don't spend a lot of time fabricating parts themselves, because these kinds of resources are available to them. And these resources make the job all the more fun and engaging!

[Joseph Smith]

My team did some water jetting for the first time this year, and we've done a few laser cut parts in the past too. When it comes to designing a part to be water jetted, it takes a different mindset and set of skills. I believe that students can learn a great deal during the design process for these parts. We tend to find a balance between sheet metal parts and manually lathed/cut/drilled parts that keeps our fabrication team busy and engaged but allows us to go for the more complex designs. I think that there's still plenty to learn about the sheet metal forming, bending and assembling process, and still plenty of hands-on fabrication work that goes along with it.

[jnicho15]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

Buy a CNC router.

Zero regrets.

That is all I have to say.

What make/model? Our team is considering "joining the club" this off-season.

[frcguy]

Originally Posted by jnicho15

What make/model? Our team is considering "joining the club" this off-season.

I've heard fantastic things about Velox CNC (http://www.veloxcncrouters.com), that's what I am looking into for 5940 right now.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by jnicho15

What make/model? Our team is considering "joining the club" this off-season.

4'x4' bed router, 1678 has been wonderfully impressed by our VeloxCNC Router that we bought last October. It was so good to us that we hardly used our CNC Laser sponsor, pretty much just some gussets and our belly pans(made 3 robots). That one machine made easily 75% of each of our 3 robots this season. Far better than the one I have at work, I'm jealous. PM me if you want to know more about the exact options.

[jdunston94]

It actually kind of saddens me to see that you think that getting some parts or an entire robot cut takes away from the "fun" and learning experience. Every year our build gets better and better. Why? Because we first do it in complete CAD. While we did small amounts of manual mill work this season, having a robot laser cut is in my opinion one of the smartest things possible. The kids learn the tools like 3d modeling and analysis, which is what they will have to do in the work force and the time they dont spend machining parts for the competition bot they are making high fidelity prototypes. More than making the prototypes they are breaking the prototypes and learning how to make the final product better, strong, and more reliable.

[asid61]

As somebody who has used the mill continually for 4 years: send those parts out! I have learned many more things pertinent to my Mechanical Eng. major through CAD than through the hours I've put in on the mill, and if you have the resources I would highly recommend going with waterjetted parts.
The CAD isn't going to make itself, and the robot still needs to be assembled, tested, and reiterated afterwards.
Just wondering, have you talked with your kids about the choice?

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

4'x4' bed router, 1678 has been wonderfully impressed by our VeloxCNC Router that we bought last October. It was so good to us that we hardly used our CNC Laser sponsor, pretty much just some gussets and our belly pans(made 3 robots). That one machine made easily 75% of each of our 3 robots this season. Far better than the one I have at work, I'm jealous. PM me if you want to know more about the exact options.

Ditto, We purchased a 50X50VR Velox last year with a 2.5 HP HSD spindle and we love it. We have no problem machining 6061 aluminum.

We made our 2016 robot completely in house (classroom) with our Velox CNC router, AirWolf 3D Printer, and Jet Lathe.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by asid61

As somebody who has used the mill continually for 4 years: send those parts out! I have learned many more things pertinent to my Mechanical Eng. major through CAD than through the hours I've put in on the mill, and if you have the resources I would highly recommend going with waterjetted parts.
The CAD isn't going to make itself, and the robot still needs to be assembled, tested, and reiterated afterwards.
Just wondering, have you talked with your kids about the choice?

Not all of the kids want to be Mech Engineers, FIRST is about the kids trying what they are interested in and finding their passion. Some want to be Engineers, some want to be machine operators, welders, or accountants.

[Kevin Leonard]

A few notes.
CNC or Waterjet equipment is NOT NECESSARY to be competitive. 5254 was highly competitive the past two years despite using almost exclusively COTS parts from VEXPro.

However, these things can be helpful if used right, and provide a huge learning opportunity for students, especially if your team also uses CAD heavily. I vividly remember seeing our 2013 shooter plates on 20 being waterjetted using RPI's waterjet, and it was inspirational (and effective as well).

Advanced manufacturing techniques are not necessary to build a good robot, but they can help make some difficult tasks easier and provide a unique learning experience for students.