FRC rules around seating need to change.

[gblake]

The title says the seating rules need to change. I don't think that is right. The existing rule needs to be enforced. Changed rules that aren't enforced will be as useless as the current rule.

People need to stop being squeamish about identifying the rule-beakers. The situation needs more "sunshine", not a code of silence.

[s_forbes]

For what it's worth, I've never had an issue sitting inside of another team's "reserved" seating to watch a few matches. Most teams want to be able to have their members sit together during eliminations, and some mark off where they intend to sit. If you ask to sit in their empty seats during qualification matches, they almost never object. The vast majority of people in the stands are pretty reasonable.

I'm fairly confident that you will have better seats by communicating with other teams in the stands than by having FIRST sanction off a section where you are required to sit.

[Pauline Tasci]

The problem with the current process is that to get good seats you have to push your way right when pits/stands open and have a lot of people moving back and forth from pits and stands.

In LA a LONG time ago we assigned seating sections everyday, everyone had an allocated number and it would change everyday to ensure people had good seating at least once. I think this option could work with a separate area reserved for scouts.

But really, we just have to enforce the rule that exists now.

[Chief Hedgehog]

Originally Posted by GBK

Not only is saving seats a problem but teams standing up during matches is a problem. In some cases the entire teams stands during their match

Since you were on Carson, you didn't have this problem with 4607... But yes, our team gets up and screams like crazy for our team. We have a cheer squad and a cheer captain - and have 8 different cheers we use throughout the event. 4607 can be quite obnoxious - we know this. We use our shields, light sabers, flags, and anything we can get our hands on and wave them like crazy. Funny thing is, we look at this like a sporting event and our team/fans have been well conditioned by our football games (Back to Back State Champs!). We go nuts for our squad - and we won't change this for the foreseeable future. That and we bring down a lot of people.

But we are fun and bring in those around us. We cheer for those teams we are allied with and have never had a complaint.

I coach them throughout the season that there are no saved seats and we have not yet had a problem.

As for scouting, if your scouts are in the lower rows, they will have a tough time scouting the field.

[Gamma +]

As much as I despise conversations like these, I must comment on the issue. I was disgusted at how abrasive and inconsiderate teams were in the stands at champs. As an individual trying to float around the dome, watching as many matches on different divisions as possible, I rarely sat in one seat for more than a single match, and I didn't have the luxury of showing up early and claiming a single seat. It was strange to me that teams were so reluctant to let a single, polite robot enthusiast temporarily use vacant seats that would be left empty otherwise. On top of that, it startled me to see how hostile teams were towards each other. In subdivision playoffs, I observed a team that had just lost their match stand up and yell awful things at another team that was cheering for the winning alliance. The cheering team was in fact, not from the same division, and they were simply congratulating their friends- completely harmless, and with no ill intent. It is understandable to be passionate about winning, but it is absolutely ridiculous to yell and shout at supporters of the winning alliance. This is neither gracious nor professional. That being said, I am very grateful to the people who did have reserved seats that were gracious enough to share them with me.

[jnicho15]

I think there is a point that is acceptable. For example, I see no problem saving a few seats in the 400s at Einstein for the people in the pit packing the crate. However, some teams do go too far.

[GBK]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

Since you were on Carson, you didn't have this problem with 4607... But yes, our team gets up and screams like crazy for our team. We have a cheer squad and a cheer captain - and have 8 different cheers we use throughout the event. 4607 can be quite obnoxious - we know this. We use our shields, light sabers, flags, and anything we can get our hands on and wave them like crazy. Funny thing is, we look at this like a sporting event and our team/fans have been well conditioned by our football games (Back to Back State Champs!). We go nuts for our squad - and we won't change this for the foreseeable future. That and we bring down a lot of people.

But we are fun and bring in those around us. We cheer for those teams we are allied with and have never had a complaint.

I coach them throughout the season that there are no saved seats and we have not yet had a problem.

As for scouting, if your scouts are in the lower rows, they will have a tough time scouting the field.

The seats sectioned off at Championship for teams that were on the field were great for watching matches. Not all venues do that or have the ability to do that. The issues we encountered were higher in the stands as well as at district events. Your team sounds like a lot of fun. I would rather see a team having that kind of enthusiasm than a team with its members sleeping in the stands or playing games. Keep up the good work. The bottom line is everyone is there for the same reason. We all want to see matches. Considering those around you is part of gracious professionalism

[jimbo493]

Regional and district events won't change, there is too much variability in seating, from individual seats to bleachers. However at CMP they should assign seating. At NOAC, which is a large event in the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow, we were all given a name badge like at CMP, and on the bottom it had each of the 4 shows, and an assigned seat, they didn't strictly enforce it, but each group was sitting in the same area, once you got there you could move around within your group. There were 4 shows, so two shows you had lower bowl seats, and 2 shows you had upper bowl seats. Then you could have sections book off for visitors and VIPs assorted around the dome, by every field. This way there would be no argument about "saving seats". And then you could assign a block of scouting seats, and you would have to specify your number of seats you need-max 8 for scouting.

Just my 2 cents

[I_AM_Clayton]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

the seats were empty allowing me to sit in them which they did not take kindly to.

I understand man. At champs this year during quals a friend and I went to watch matches on another field during Hopper lunch. We found good seats that had a reasonable view of the field. Before having the opportunity to sit a lady stuck out her leg blocking our path and informed us that she had most of the seats in the row saved for her team for when they returned. We didn't mind since we were taking a small lunch break and there were only two of us. At the time I knew about the rule but didn't feel the need to start a confrontation.

We moved over and sat in a section to the left. A few team leaders of another team shot us looks everyone once in a while for the less than 10 minutes it took to eat our lunch and see 2 field resets and only 1 match. The next day we decided to go up to the 400's level to eat our lunch. I feel that we shouldn't have had to worry about finding seats for a few minutes to eat lunch. Teams shouldn't be able to save seats for an entire day unless they are physically sitting in them. If no one is sitting in them for a long period of time I feel like other people should be allowed to sit in them. Not to say that you shouldn't be able to leave and come back to your seats, but that leads right back to the saving seats rule. I appreciate the team that didn't throw us out or attempt to throw us out of their section. We returned the favor by leaving promptly after finishing our lunch.

[hrench]

Originally Posted by gblake

The existing rule needs to be enforced. Changed rules that aren't enforced will be as useless as the current rule.

People need to stop being squeamish about identifying the rule-beakers. The situation needs more "sunshine", not a code of silence.

So we have a simple rule that isn't enforced. I appreciate Sperkowsky's ingenuity of thinking up a new plan, but I don't think a more complicated rule will do any better.

I encourage you to call-out the offender. They have people reading CD. It will get back to them and they won't do it next time.

I've volunteered 'crowd control' at the Greater KC regional where we normally don't have enough seats and it's routine for the announcer to occasionally remind of the 'no saving seats' policy.

[hardcopi]

Not sure the answer to this because something obviously needs to be done. Last year I think it was that we had 2 mentors get up to use the restroom. They left their stuff (laptops, cameras, jackets, etc) in their seats. We had parents from another team shove their stuff aside and sit in those seats. When we explained they yelled at us about not saving seats and continued when we asked them if we could retrieve the belongings.

It goes both ways is my point. Maybe we have to go to assigned areas for each team. Seems a bit much but the current system isn't working. I do know Einstein could be a TON better if it was held on the wide side of the field instead of the smaller curved side.

[JesseK]

A fundamental issue with this topic is brought up in the first story that gives us context:

The OP wanted to save a seat.

Ignore any perceived contradiction, perceived double standards or perceived hypocrisy. This situation brings up the point that people want to sit together, and should be allowed to sit together.

How many saved seats it too many? 1 seat? 12 seats? 48 seats for the 54-person team?

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by hrench

I encourage you to call-out the offender. They have people reading CD. It will get back to them and they won't do it next time.

The thing is. The team whom I had a specific issue with was actually a very well respected team. Probably had one of the top 10 robots in the world this year. The other thing is that is was an issue mostly between a few parents and a single team member. I do plan on contacting a mentor on the team though.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by JesseK

A fundamental issue with this topic is brought up in the first story that gives us context:

The OP wanted to save a seat.

Ignore any perceived contradiction, perceived double standards or perceived hypocrisy. This situation brings up the point that people want to sit together, and should be allowed to sit together.

How many saved seats it too many? 1 seat? 12 seats? 48 seats for the 54-person team?

Additionally - if an empty seat is 'fair game' at any point in time, it becomes a real powder keg of a situation anytime someone gets up to use the restroom, eat, check the robot etc.

If you enforce the letter of the rule to its most literal interpretation, anytime someone gets up (for whatever reason), a pack of people can be waiting, claim a seat and quote the rule. I'm not saying people and teams don't take advantage of this, but at the same time I'm failing to see how many of the proposed solutions aside from straight up assigned seats will address the issue. I also can't quite wrap my head around how assigned seats would work with the variability in team size and how that too wouldn't lead to chunks of empty seats in premium locations that people would subsequently want to sit in...

-Brando

[OccamzRazor]

It is simple really yet people seem to still insist on acting foolish.

We had our entire team trying to find a few seats together and the newer students who did not know any better were respecting the wishes of other teams that wanted to save seats even though they are not allowed to do so. After I watched my team finally end up in the 400 section and people were still trying to save seats up there I had them all sit down wherever there was space because at that point we were in the nosebleeds and it was getting ridiculous for Einstein.

There were mentors from other teams and parents yelling about us sitting in 30 empty seats but lets face it....the short side of the stadium is not large enough for this behavior. Even if you need to sit in the middle of a team saving seats, do it and explain to them that they are simply not allowed to save sections, the stadium is too small on the short side for all these teams to fit, and that being aggressive and confrontational can cost their team awards as well as the respect of the FRC community.

OP I am sorry you had that experience but one person defying a crowd never ends well. I hope you contact their mentor and have a discussion about the event since everyone is wearing a convenient name tag. You were in the right but unfortunately people are tired, short tempered, and not their best at the end of a long week.

Once most of the teams are out of the running they seem to devolve into tired and angry people that throw GP out of the window once they have nothing to lose. This is a culture that should change.