Go to Post Polycord. It was used in all sorts of ball systems in 2009, and on some of the 2007 claws. It's not too hard to fuse together by hand with some heat and patience. - AustinSchuh [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 00:19
gblake's Avatar
gblake gblake is offline
6th Gear Developer; Mentor
AKA: Blake Ross
no team (6th Gear)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,934
gblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

The title says the seating rules need to change. I don't think that is right. The existing rule needs to be enforced. Changed rules that aren't enforced will be as useless as the current rule.

People need to stop being squeamish about identifying the rule-beakers. The situation needs more "sunshine", not a code of silence.
__________________
Blake Ross, For emailing me, in the verizon.net domain, I am blake
VRC Team Mentor, FTC volunteer, 5th Gear Developer, Husband, Father, Triangle Fraternity Alumnus (ky 76), U Ky BSEE, Tau Beta Pi, Eta Kappa Nu, Kentucky Colonel
Words/phrases I avoid: basis, mitigate, leveraging, transitioning, impact (instead of affect/effect), facilitate, programmatic, problematic, issue (instead of problem), latency (instead of delay), dependency (instead of prerequisite), connectivity, usage & utilize (instead of use), downed, functionality, functional, power on, descore, alumni (instead of alumnus/alumna), the enterprise, methodology, nomenclature, form factor (instead of size or shape), competency, modality, provided(with), provision(ing), irregardless/irrespective, signage, colorized, pulsating, ideate
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 00:21
s_forbes's Avatar
s_forbes s_forbes is offline
anonymous internet person
FRC #0842 (Falcon Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,125
s_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

For what it's worth, I've never had an issue sitting inside of another team's "reserved" seating to watch a few matches. Most teams want to be able to have their members sit together during eliminations, and some mark off where they intend to sit. If you ask to sit in their empty seats during qualification matches, they almost never object. The vast majority of people in the stands are pretty reasonable.

I'm fairly confident that you will have better seats by communicating with other teams in the stands than by having FIRST sanction off a section where you are required to sit.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 01:18
Pauline Tasci's Avatar
Pauline Tasci Pauline Tasci is offline
Rockets and Robots
FRC #3476 (Code Orange)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 307
Pauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

The problem with the current process is that to get good seats you have to push your way right when pits/stands open and have a lot of people moving back and forth from pits and stands.

In LA a LONG time ago we assigned seating sections everyday, everyone had an allocated number and it would change everyday to ensure people had good seating at least once. I think this option could work with a separate area reserved for scouts.

But really, we just have to enforce the rule that exists now.
__________________
Team 3476 Code Orange- 2014-? ~ Head Mechanical and Design Mentor
FIRST Orange County 2015-? ~Regional Planning Committee Member
Beach Blitz 2016-? ~ Event Chair/Director
FIRST Volunteer-2010-?
Team 589 Falkon Robotics- 2010-2013 ~Captain, Driver, Outreach, Mech Lead
CD Moderator~ Always feel free to PM me.
Facebook
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 01:35
Chief Hedgehog's Avatar
Chief Hedgehog Chief Hedgehog is offline
Mentor
FRC #4607 (C.I.S.)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Becker, Minnesota
Posts: 540
Chief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBK View Post
Not only is saving seats a problem but teams standing up during matches is a problem. In some cases the entire teams stands during their match
Since you were on Carson, you didn't have this problem with 4607... But yes, our team gets up and screams like crazy for our team. We have a cheer squad and a cheer captain - and have 8 different cheers we use throughout the event. 4607 can be quite obnoxious - we know this. We use our shields, light sabers, flags, and anything we can get our hands on and wave them like crazy. Funny thing is, we look at this like a sporting event and our team/fans have been well conditioned by our football games (Back to Back State Champs!). We go nuts for our squad - and we won't change this for the foreseeable future. That and we bring down a lot of people.

But we are fun and bring in those around us. We cheer for those teams we are allied with and have never had a complaint.

I coach them throughout the season that there are no saved seats and we have not yet had a problem.

As for scouting, if your scouts are in the lower rows, they will have a tough time scouting the field.
__________________

"An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it" ~JFK
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 02:18
Gamma + Gamma + is offline
Registered User
FRC #2130
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Earth
Posts: 10
Gamma + is on a distinguished road
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

As much as I despise conversations like these, I must comment on the issue. I was disgusted at how abrasive and inconsiderate teams were in the stands at champs. As an individual trying to float around the dome, watching as many matches on different divisions as possible, I rarely sat in one seat for more than a single match, and I didn't have the luxury of showing up early and claiming a single seat. It was strange to me that teams were so reluctant to let a single, polite robot enthusiast temporarily use vacant seats that would be left empty otherwise. On top of that, it startled me to see how hostile teams were towards each other. In subdivision playoffs, I observed a team that had just lost their match stand up and yell awful things at another team that was cheering for the winning alliance. The cheering team was in fact, not from the same division, and they were simply congratulating their friends- completely harmless, and with no ill intent. It is understandable to be passionate about winning, but it is absolutely ridiculous to yell and shout at supporters of the winning alliance. This is neither gracious nor professional. That being said, I am very grateful to the people who did have reserved seats that were gracious enough to share them with me.
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 06:20
jnicho15's Avatar
jnicho15 jnicho15 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Dan
FRC #0548 (Robostangs)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Northville, Michigan, USA
Posts: 114
jnicho15 is just really nicejnicho15 is just really nicejnicho15 is just really nicejnicho15 is just really nice
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

I think there is a point that is acceptable. For example, I see no problem saving a few seats in the 400s at Einstein for the people in the pit packing the crate. However, some teams do go too far.
__________________
2014: MIHOW DCA, Finalist


2015: MISOU Finalist; MILIV DCA, Winner; MIBED Winner; MICMP Winner, Engineering Excellence


2016: MISOU KPCB Entrepreneurship Award; MILIV DCA; MICMP 16th Alliance- 8-F winner
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 07:09
GBK GBK is offline
Registered User
FRC #1918 (NC GEARS)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Fremont, MI
Posts: 108
GBK is a glorious beacon of lightGBK is a glorious beacon of lightGBK is a glorious beacon of lightGBK is a glorious beacon of lightGBK is a glorious beacon of lightGBK is a glorious beacon of light
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog View Post
Since you were on Carson, you didn't have this problem with 4607... But yes, our team gets up and screams like crazy for our team. We have a cheer squad and a cheer captain - and have 8 different cheers we use throughout the event. 4607 can be quite obnoxious - we know this. We use our shields, light sabers, flags, and anything we can get our hands on and wave them like crazy. Funny thing is, we look at this like a sporting event and our team/fans have been well conditioned by our football games (Back to Back State Champs!). We go nuts for our squad - and we won't change this for the foreseeable future. That and we bring down a lot of people.

But we are fun and bring in those around us. We cheer for those teams we are allied with and have never had a complaint.

I coach them throughout the season that there are no saved seats and we have not yet had a problem.

As for scouting, if your scouts are in the lower rows, they will have a tough time scouting the field.
The seats sectioned off at Championship for teams that were on the field were great for watching matches. Not all venues do that or have the ability to do that. The issues we encountered were higher in the stands as well as at district events. Your team sounds like a lot of fun. I would rather see a team having that kind of enthusiasm than a team with its members sleeping in the stands or playing games. Keep up the good work. The bottom line is everyone is there for the same reason. We all want to see matches. Considering those around you is part of gracious professionalism
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 08:48
jimbo493's Avatar
jimbo493 jimbo493 is offline
Quasi Mentor
AKA: Jimmy
FRC #3357 (The COMETS)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Grand Rapids/Big Rapids
Posts: 77
jimbo493 is on a distinguished road
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Regional and district events won't change, there is too much variability in seating, from individual seats to bleachers. However at CMP they should assign seating. At NOAC, which is a large event in the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow, we were all given a name badge like at CMP, and on the bottom it had each of the 4 shows, and an assigned seat, they didn't strictly enforce it, but each group was sitting in the same area, once you got there you could move around within your group. There were 4 shows, so two shows you had lower bowl seats, and 2 shows you had upper bowl seats. Then you could have sections book off for visitors and VIPs assorted around the dome, by every field. This way there would be no argument about "saving seats". And then you could assign a block of scouting seats, and you would have to specify your number of seats you need-max 8 for scouting.

Just my 2 cents
__________________


FTC Student 2011-2012 FRC Student 2012-2016
FIRST Alum/Quasi-Mentor 2016-present
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 09:15
I_AM_Clayton's Avatar
I_AM_Clayton I_AM_Clayton is offline
Jr./Build Captain
AKA: Clayton Miller
FRC #3397 (Robolions)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: University City Missouri
Posts: 127
I_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond reputeI_AM_Clayton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sperkowsky View Post
the seats were empty allowing me to sit in them which they did not take kindly to.
I understand man. At champs this year during quals a friend and I went to watch matches on another field during Hopper lunch. We found good seats that had a reasonable view of the field. Before having the opportunity to sit a lady stuck out her leg blocking our path and informed us that she had most of the seats in the row saved for her team for when they returned. We didn't mind since we were taking a small lunch break and there were only two of us. At the time I knew about the rule but didn't feel the need to start a confrontation.

We moved over and sat in a section to the left. A few team leaders of another team shot us looks everyone once in a while for the less than 10 minutes it took to eat our lunch and see 2 field resets and only 1 match. The next day we decided to go up to the 400's level to eat our lunch. I feel that we shouldn't have had to worry about finding seats for a few minutes to eat lunch. Teams shouldn't be able to save seats for an entire day unless they are physically sitting in them. If no one is sitting in them for a long period of time I feel like other people should be allowed to sit in them. Not to say that you shouldn't be able to leave and come back to your seats, but that leads right back to the saving seats rule. I appreciate the team that didn't throw us out or attempt to throw us out of their section. We returned the favor by leaving promptly after finishing our lunch.
__________________


2014 Gateway Robotics Challenge Winners with 1985 and 2481

FRC IS LIFE
Robolions 3397 pages
facebook- https://www.facebook.com/robolions3397
youtube- https://www.youtube.com/user/robolions3397
Instagram- @robolions_3397, https://instagram.com/robolions_3397/

Last edited by I_AM_Clayton : 05-05-2016 at 09:23.
Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 09:45
hrench's Avatar
hrench hrench is offline
Mechanical build mentor
AKA: Bob Hrenchir
FRC #1108 (Panther Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Paola, KS
Posts: 220
hrench is a name known to allhrench is a name known to allhrench is a name known to allhrench is a name known to allhrench is a name known to allhrench is a name known to all
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblake View Post
The existing rule needs to be enforced. Changed rules that aren't enforced will be as useless as the current rule.

People need to stop being squeamish about identifying the rule-beakers. The situation needs more "sunshine", not a code of silence.
So we have a simple rule that isn't enforced. I appreciate Sperkowsky's ingenuity of thinking up a new plan, but I don't think a more complicated rule will do any better.

I encourage you to call-out the offender. They have people reading CD. It will get back to them and they won't do it next time.

I've volunteered 'crowd control' at the Greater KC regional where we normally don't have enough seats and it's routine for the announcer to occasionally remind of the 'no saving seats' policy.
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 09:47
hardcopi hardcopi is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rich Lester
FRC #2959 (The Robotarians)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 271
hardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud ofhardcopi has much to be proud of
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Not sure the answer to this because something obviously needs to be done. Last year I think it was that we had 2 mentors get up to use the restroom. They left their stuff (laptops, cameras, jackets, etc) in their seats. We had parents from another team shove their stuff aside and sit in those seats. When we explained they yelled at us about not saving seats and continued when we asked them if we could retrieve the belongings.

It goes both ways is my point. Maybe we have to go to assigned areas for each team. Seems a bit much but the current system isn't working. I do know Einstein could be a TON better if it was held on the wide side of the field instead of the smaller curved side.
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 09:52
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 3,632
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

A fundamental issue with this topic is brought up in the first story that gives us context:

The OP wanted to save a seat.

Ignore any perceived contradiction, perceived double standards or perceived hypocrisy. This situation brings up the point that people want to sit together, and should be allowed to sit together.

How many saved seats it too many? 1 seat? 12 seats? 48 seats for the 54-person team?
__________________

Drive Coach, 1885 (2007-present)
CAD Library Updated 5/1/16 - 2016 Curie/Carver Industrial Design Winner
GitHub
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 11:00
Sperkowsky's Avatar
Sperkowsky Sperkowsky is offline
Professional Multitasker
AKA: Samuel Perkowsky
FRC #2869 (Regal Eagles)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Bethpage, NY
Posts: 1,885
Sperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrench View Post
I encourage you to call-out the offender. They have people reading CD. It will get back to them and they won't do it next time.
The thing is. The team whom I had a specific issue with was actually a very well respected team. Probably had one of the top 10 robots in the world this year. The other thing is that is was an issue mostly between a few parents and a single team member. I do plan on contacting a mentor on the team though.
Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 11:12
Brandon Holley's Avatar
Brandon Holley Brandon Holley is offline
Chase perfection. Catch excellence.
AKA: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
FRC #0125 (NU-TRONs, Team #11 Alumni (GO MORT))
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,590
Brandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Brandon Holley
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
A fundamental issue with this topic is brought up in the first story that gives us context:

The OP wanted to save a seat.

Ignore any perceived contradiction, perceived double standards or perceived hypocrisy. This situation brings up the point that people want to sit together, and should be allowed to sit together.

How many saved seats it too many? 1 seat? 12 seats? 48 seats for the 54-person team?
Additionally - if an empty seat is 'fair game' at any point in time, it becomes a real powder keg of a situation anytime someone gets up to use the restroom, eat, check the robot etc.

If you enforce the letter of the rule to its most literal interpretation, anytime someone gets up (for whatever reason), a pack of people can be waiting, claim a seat and quote the rule. I'm not saying people and teams don't take advantage of this, but at the same time I'm failing to see how many of the proposed solutions aside from straight up assigned seats will address the issue. I also can't quite wrap my head around how assigned seats would work with the variability in team size and how that too wouldn't lead to chunks of empty seats in premium locations that people would subsequently want to sit in...

-Brando
__________________
MORT (Team 11) '01-'05 :
-2005 New Jersey Regional Chairman's Award Winners
-2013 MORT Hall of Fame Inductee

NUTRONs (Team 125) '05-???
2007 Boston Regional Winners
2008 & 2009 Boston Regional Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award
2010 Boston Regional Creativity Award
2011 Bayou Regional Finalists, Innovation in Control Award, Boston Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award
2012 New York City Regional Winners, Boston Regional Finalists, IRI Mentor of the Year
2013 Orlando Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award, Boston Regional Winners, Pine Tree Regional Finalists
2014 Rhode Island District Winners, Excellence in Engineering Award, Northeastern University District Winners, Industrial Design Award, Pine Tree District Chairman's Award, Pine Tree District Winners
2015 South Florida Regional Chairman's Award, NU District Winners, NEDCMP Industrial Design Award, Hopper Division Finalists, Hopper/Newton Gracious Professionalism Award
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 11:25
OccamzRazor's Avatar
OccamzRazor OccamzRazor is offline
Go YETI!
AKA: Robbie
FRC #3506 (YETI)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posts: 169
OccamzRazor is a splendid one to beholdOccamzRazor is a splendid one to beholdOccamzRazor is a splendid one to beholdOccamzRazor is a splendid one to beholdOccamzRazor is a splendid one to beholdOccamzRazor is a splendid one to behold
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.

It is simple really yet people seem to still insist on acting foolish.

We had our entire team trying to find a few seats together and the newer students who did not know any better were respecting the wishes of other teams that wanted to save seats even though they are not allowed to do so. After I watched my team finally end up in the 400 section and people were still trying to save seats up there I had them all sit down wherever there was space because at that point we were in the nosebleeds and it was getting ridiculous for Einstein.

There were mentors from other teams and parents yelling about us sitting in 30 empty seats but lets face it....the short side of the stadium is not large enough for this behavior. Even if you need to sit in the middle of a team saving seats, do it and explain to them that they are simply not allowed to save sections, the stadium is too small on the short side for all these teams to fit, and that being aggressive and confrontational can cost their team awards as well as the respect of the FRC community.

OP I am sorry you had that experience but one person defying a crowd never ends well. I hope you contact their mentor and have a discussion about the event since everyone is wearing a convenient name tag. You were in the right but unfortunately people are tired, short tempered, and not their best at the end of a long week.

Once most of the teams are out of the running they seem to devolve into tired and angry people that throw GP out of the window once they have nothing to lose. This is a culture that should change.
__________________
2015 NC Regional Chairman's Award
2016 NC Guilford District Event Winner
2016 NC Guilford District Chairman's Award
2016 NC District Championship Winner
2016 NC Regional Chairman's Award
2016 NC Woodie Flowers Award Finalist - Lia Schwinghammer



Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:44.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi