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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-05-2016, 16:40
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by leon r View Post
I do not get it, why is anyone offended by the pins? Seems like a harmless game (which my team didn't partake in).
I don't like being touched without my consent, especially by strangers.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 16:46
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
I don't like being touched without my consent, especially by strangers.
It really is the worst feeling if you haven't experienced it.

Mine was comparatively mild: I worked USC football games as a fundraiser for 4901. It's hot and sweaty work in big (drunken) crowds, but it's good money. I was on the ramps probably 30 minutes to kickoff, eyes towards the thousands pouring into the stadium, when someone came up on my blind side and just started playing with my sideburns (which were already a little disgusting from the heat and exertion) before continuing on up the ramp. I didn't have means to stop them, nor did it feel like it was worth my efforts to do so, but It Was Not Okay.

If you're going to clothespin, do it with consent or don't do it at all.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 16:57
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Should I modify this into a general purpose form? I can add a field for the competition you had a problem at. I'm mostly focusing on Champs because I want Houston Champs to run smoothly and not have these sorts of problems, and I should have some influence with a board member or two.
You could. Im not going to call any teams out because what happened is over, but I noticed the team sitting behind us didn't have their bleachers full and I only watched matches whenever we were up since I was the pit boss. It was nice to take a break every once in awhile. So I asked if I could sit in the spots and somebody said sure, but their team would be back soon. I let them know when they do get back, I'll be happy to move but I should be gone before then. So a friend and I sat there for a bit and I thought I saw somebody from their team so I got ready to move. As I was shuffling seats, I got in the way of another team for maybe 10 seconds and it's like I just slapped their team captain. They started yelling at me saying how I was in their way and how I'm blocking their match. I moved but they could have been a little more polite. I realized that the other team I was sitting by wasn't coming back so I went back to where I was sitting at the end of the match. About 2 minutes later, a man came and started yelling at my friend and I for sitting in their seats. So we stood up and the team that yelled at us before, yelled at us again. So we were getting yelled at by two teams at once. Thinking about it, I don't know what really could have happened to prevent them from getting so mad at us besides them learning manners.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 17:57
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Lots of students enjoy the clothespin tagging game, on both the tagger and taggee sides. I don't want to participate, but I also don't want to ruin the game for the willing participants. Asking for consent spoils the fun. So how about explicitly identifying the tag targets? People who are happy to get pins clipped to them could wear a distinctive sash or wristband. Anyone not displaying the "target consent" item would be out of bounds.
This brings to mind a policy I've seen at a con (GeekGirlCon specifically although others may have it as well).

Quote:
If you are taking photographs of attendees, please respect those that do not wish to be photographed or recorded by asking permission to take pictures and avoiding anyone with a “do not photograph” sticker. Always request
If there was a sticker that people could put on their badge to allow them to opt out of touching, pinning, etc, it might make this more tolerable, as long as people will take the time to look for opt-outs and respect them.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 18:01
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by jweston View Post
This brings to mind a policy I've seen at a con (GeekGirlCon specifically although others may have it as well).



If there was a sticker that people could put on their badge to allow them to opt out of touching, pinning, etc, it might make this more tolerable, as long as people will take the time to look for opt-outs and respect them.
Shouldn't this be more of an opt-in?
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Unread 05-05-2016, 18:05
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

The clothespin game doesn't bug me anymore than that dopey ninja game the kids enjoy playing so much. The free hugs thing concerns me. It's a sexual harassment suit waiting to happen.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 18:11
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
Shouldn't this be more of an opt-in?
Yes, the general population should not be assumed to be a part of the clothespin tagging game. I would propose something similar to humans vs zombies games played on college campuses-- a clear armband or headband (hey, that sounds like a cool team giveaway!), no involving bystanders.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 18:13
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by jweston View Post
This brings to mind a policy I've seen at a con (GeekGirlCon specifically although others may have it as well).



If there was a sticker that people could put on their badge to allow them to opt out of touching, pinning, etc, it might make this more tolerable, as long as people will take the time to look for opt-outs and respect them.
I like to keep my lanyard and ID clean, I think it looks better, I would not like to have to put a sticker on it that says "I choose to retain my right to personal space".

Side note: I can understand people not wanting to be photographed, but I believe that most FIRST events (and I believe most cons) operate under a policy of you are allowing us to photograph you by choosing to be here. That is stated in the release I agree to each year and I have seen signs to that effect at events.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 18:19
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

Two things about the Clothespin "Game"

1. How do you make sure everyone understands you can only do it to certain people? It isn't like FIRST will put out a message, put up signs, and let anyone holding a clothespin the rules.

2. I personally don't find it fun. Last year it made me uncomfortable. People on my team who thought it was fun would do it to me. I asked them to stop. When I did they asked me why I was trying to "kill their fun" I didn't have anything else I could say which really frustrated me.

To some it is harmless fun, to others it isn't. How you make the distinction between those who want to play and who don't is incredibly important, and not nearly as simple as people make it out to be.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 19:07
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

There is so much to do at any competition that there isn't a legitimate argument that I've seen for allowing it at all. Why keep something going on if it makes anyone uncomfortable? When anyone says "This makes me uncomfortable", that is the end of it, the behavior must stop.

I was slightly on edge about this throughout competitions because I don't want someone doing something to me without my knowledge. It is like a prank. Would you pull a prank on someone you don't know? Would you throw glitter on the heads of strangers without their consent or knowledge? Don't put things on people, because you never know if they want you to do so unless you ask them.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 19:59
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by starfire2999 View Post
There is so much to do at any competition that there isn't a legitimate argument that I've seen for allowing it at all. Why keep something going on if it makes anyone uncomfortable? When anyone says "This makes me uncomfortable", that is the end of it, the behavior must stop.

I was slightly on edge about this throughout competitions because I don't want someone doing something to me without my knowledge. It is like a prank. Would you pull a prank on someone you don't know? Would you throw glitter on the heads of strangers without their consent or knowledge? Don't put things on people, because you never know if they want you to do so unless you ask them.
Some people get uncomfortable from being looked at, talked to, seeing a mascot, being surrounded by a lot of people, hearing grinding gears, and seeing messy wiring. A lot of little things make a few people uncomfortable but shouldn't necessarily be banned.

Real harassment can happen at events. Complaining this much about clothes pinning, which is usually just mildly annoying, is an insult to victims of actual harassment.

Don't teach everyone not to have a little harmless fun. Teach creeps not to creep.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 20:09
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

I had a team at champs, who will go unnamed, kick me out of my seat. As I left, I heard an adult yell a racist term, as I am not white. I was taken aback and looked back at them, where the adult and some other mentors stoood snickering.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 20:22
Conor Ryan Conor Ryan is offline
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Exclamation Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

Why can't districts/regionals/events take these types of things into their own hands? HQ clearly has not addressed this reoccurring issue. There is enough email traffic from these people already, why can't we ask them to address their teams prior to competition. Why can't this be addressed with the whole consent and release form process? Not all events have security, and although there is an established protocol in the manual but clearly not everyone reads the manual.

Arguing with another person over the rights to sit in an unclaimed seat is verbal abuse if it goes beyond a "hey, I was sitting there and I went to the bathroom type statement"

Clothespin Game is harassment. It can also turn into sexual harassment. It can turn into sexual assault in the wrong circumstances. In the popular case of targeting a law enforcement officer, its ASSAULTING A POLICE OFFICER.

Solicitation of Free Hugs is harassment. It can also turn into sexual harassment. It can turn into sexual assault in the wrong circumstances.

Specifically in both of these cases targeting an individual without consent is harassment. Unless you have written consent you are going to have a very difficult time winning a he-said she-said argument in court.

End the practice now, before someone ruins events for all of us. You can't treat these events as a free for all. We might have teenagers at these events but in the court system they can, and will be treated like adults.

I hope HQ finds an appropriate response to indemnify themselves from future risk.

Last edited by Conor Ryan : 05-05-2016 at 20:29.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 20:52
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
Some people get uncomfortable from being looked at, talked to, seeing a mascot, being surrounded by a lot of people, hearing grinding gears, and seeing messy wiring. A lot of little things make a few people uncomfortable but shouldn't necessarily be banned.

Real harassment can happen at events. Complaining this much about clothes pinning, which is usually just mildly annoying, is an insult to victims of actual harassment.

Don't teach everyone not to have a little harmless fun. Teach creeps not to creep.
The things you've listed as making people uncomfortable are things that are not being forced on people. If they don't like grinding gears or messy wiring, they can stay out of the pits. If they don't want to talk, they can say "sorry, I need some quiet" or even just find a quiet place to sit for a little while.

Clothespinning is something that is being forced on people. Yes, some (perhaps many) people aren't bothered by it. But forcing somebody to accept deliberate violation of their personal space is harassment.

Yes, we should be striving to teach students "not to creep" aka respect boundaries. I see this as part of it. Some of my students were clothespinned in St. Louis last week, and while some shrugged it off, others were bothered by it. One of my girls had already had to deal with mentors yelling at her while she was pit scouting as well as students from another team throwing things at her while her friends helped her calm down from the incidents with the mentors. She was not exactly thrilled to have somebody sticking things to her.

I recognize that whoever had the clothespin didn't know about what happened to her. But that's part of the problem - you don't know what's going on with a stranger, and you don't know which stranger is the one who will be distressed by what you only intend as a harmless prank.
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Unread 05-05-2016, 21:26
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Re: 2016 Championship Harassment Survey

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Originally Posted by jgerstein View Post
Clothespinning is something that is being forced on people. Yes, some (perhaps many) people aren't bothered by it. But forcing somebody to accept deliberate violation of their personal space is harassment.
I'm going to piggyback on this (which, if done literally, could be considered harassment) and say that many forms of "real" harassment are similar to having a clothespin clipped on your clothes. Hugging, inappropriate touching and clothespinning all include violating a personal bubble and initiating contact without consent, the latter two are often done while trying to not be detected. To say that this is not actual harassment is to not respect the people who want their physical space respected.
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