FRC rules around seating need to change.

[Edxu]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Your general argument this whole time has been based around scouts needing seats which I understand. However, this is all thrown out the window come eliminations as scouting is over.

Scouting continues in elims spearheaded by the top scouts. However, scouting shifts from data recording to strategy recording and robot analysis.

There are matches all the time where a higher-seeded alliance lost sets because they chose not to adapt their strategy to the playstyle of the opposing alliance, or a weaker alliance was able to exploit a hole in a strong alliance's strategy and clutch out a match.

Real example: In 2014 at Ruckus, 610,1241 and 378, the third-seeded alliance were able to defeat the first-seeded alliance of 1126,1114 and 3951 by exploiting a hole in their offensive strategy.
The first-seeded alliance's strategy was to do a standard cycle of 1126 inbound+truss -> HP to 3951 -> 1114 finish, but our alliance realized that by parking 3951 in the opponent's loading area, 1126 was unable to make their truss shot effectively, winning us the match and the event in the end.



On topic: From my own observations at Canadian events,a few teams all arrive at the venue ~60-90 minutes before the doors open in order to secure great seats for the team and for scouting. Among the first few teams that arrive, there is very little rushing because teams tend to discuss what seats they want, make compromises and everyone ends up reasonably satisfied. This was what happened at GTRE, and a little bit of this happened at Waterloo.

In terms of protecting seats, we're as guilty as anyone other team that fields a large group (45 students, we usually put bags on seats etc), but we've tried to change our "seat culture" recently to offer and encourage non-team members to sit in our stands. In fact, I made a few friends that I still keep in touch with today at CMP because they asked to sit in our stands and we obliged.

I think that we still have room to improve in terms of seat-saving, but as it stands, I'm pretty satisfied and happy with how stands and seat-saving is managed at Canadian FRC events.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

snip.

What I just took from your post was

1. It's OK to break the rules because everyone else does it. (a very dangerous precedent to set to a bunch of high school students)

And

2. A persons opinion only matters if they put a team affiliation on their profile. Forgive my sarcasm but Did I miss the memo when you got the power to decide who's opinion was valid?

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Knufire

Data can help make strategic decisions during Einstein. Not the same type of scouting that you would do during qualifications where you're trying to gain an overall understanding of a robot's performance, but recording specific numbers or trends that are important to your strategy. For example, when I was sitting with 469 as an alumnus during Einstein 2014, there were students measuring average cycle time during all the Einstein matches and relaying those numbers down to the strategy team on the field.

Alright, now that two people have said this... I guess I wasn't very clear on what I meant. In elims, you aren't really taking numerical data. It's more about a couple of lead scouts taking notes and building strategies out of the strengths and weaknesses of opposing alliances. It's not as intensive.

I'll reiterate my main point: just be nice to people, and they'll be nice to you. Be understanding of others' situation, and they will be understanding of yours. This entire discussion has become uncharacteristically heated, not just for CD, but for FRC in general. It's interesting, absolutely, but let's try not to leverage age, reputation, or rhetoric to prove each other wrong. Discussion, not fighting.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

FIRST is not a monolithic entity. Of course I'm talking about changing its rules. I'm talking to FIRST here indirectly and also directly. And the only way to get a discussion going about changing its rules is to have a discussion on CD. Your are trying to shut down this discussion by saying "because FIRST said so." That is not a productive line of discussion. That's why I'm responding to you--you're responsible for your thoughts and opinions.

If you read my proposal, I thought that there should be several groups, one of them getting priority seating. But my point is that scouts are competitors who deserve the same respect as the drive team. You said that teams should build scouting systems that don't require sitting together. And I am telling you that will end innovation in technical development of scouting systems. Do you have experience in managing scouting systems that gives you enough background to refute this point? Please provide evidence that your scouting system has been successfully implemented. I think we've demonstrated that ours works.

And yes, all of the successful teams that I've encountered who scout at Champs violate this rule. Every single one of them. I'd be interested to hear any counterexamples you can provide. Obviously I can't provide a list of rule breakers, but I'll start by pointing out every #1 and #2 alliance captain on Einstein saves seats for their scouts. I think the #7 alliance captain does too. (I sat with their #1 pick and know they were saving seats.)

And if you want to really solve the problem you identified as a tour guide, then you want to solve the tragedy of the commons problem. When everyone knows what the rights are to their seats so they don't have to fight over them. Everyone will become more civil. Right now is recipe for conflict.

You're acting like everyone started driving 55 in 1973 when they changed the speed limit. Instead it turned everyone into a lawbreaker. When rules and laws fail, as they are now, it's time to change the rules.

(BTW California's water problems are rooted in the same refusal to acknowledge that scarce resources need to be explicitly allocated.)

And if you're with FRC right now, then put your affiliation on your profile. Right now you have no standing in the discussion because you have no real stake. Past affiliation doesn't count.

So much putting words into my mouth, so many unfounded assertions, and so much self-centered blindness, I'm not going to bother. Both of our positions are evident. What I wrote earlier was enough for me to describe my opinion.

While the above paragraph is plenty blunt; with it, I'm ending my half of this particular back and forth because evanerryg is right.

In the bigger picture:

Some of us seem to think it's right to tell everyone in line behind a seat-saver to take worse seats (than they would otherwise be in) so that the seat-saver may claim seats for people who haven't arrived yet at a first-come first-served event. I have been, and always will be, dumbfounded by that line of reasoning.

Others among us seem to disagree.

I don't think many people would object to FIRST creating a few enclaves for scouts to use, but we really aren't talking about the scouts here, are we? We are really talking about the much larger population(s) of non-scouts. Let's not get lost in the scouting weed patch. It's one tree, and isn't the forest.

[Chinmay]

OP, one thing that might make you feel a little better about this ongoing problem is that word does eventually get around about the teams that save seats/are obnoxious about it. Though it feels like you lost in those situations, the teams that were being rude are the ones losing in the long run.

The way our community works, no one is going to post on CD that a certain team was hogging the stands, but I can guarantee that this is something that people talk about at competitions. There have been countless instances where I've had a bad experience in the stands and mentioned it to the other volunteers I saw that day... "Team __ was quite rude in the stands" or "Team ___ had one kid always running around the pits and wouldn't listen." Other times, I might talk to my own team about how I was treated badly.

You never know when things like that make their way to the ears of the judges. In a few select instances, I have walked straight up to a judge and told them about my experience interacting with a team. If common courtesy doesn't convince you to share seats, maybe the possibility of losing some points will.

I would also like to touch upon some of the very passionate defense of seat saving that some have made on this thread. I get that teams want to sit together, I totally understand that scouts need to sit closer to the field. I understand where you are coming from and that you really, really care about your seats because they're important for team performance, I used to have the same mindset when I was a student getting scouting data from my team... BUT YOU'RE STILL BEING RUDE. Just because I can understand the motivation, doesn't mean I tolerate the behavior. I am most disappointed in the top tier teams who justify bad behavior with the competitive advantages that it provides them.

I am using this quote as an example to highlight the perceived importance of scouting to a team and (from my understanding of this post) this individual's higher value on scouting than allowing a volunteer or spectator to sit wherever they want. Not at all implying that 1678 has shown bad stands behavior, just that this post does a great job highlighting what I think is the wrong mindset to take regarding seating. I do not think the OP was at all selfish in his search for a good seat after volunteering at the event.

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Yes, you did.
3) So you believe that scouting systems are entirely superfluous to the FRC experience? In other words the only important people on FRC teams are the pit crew and the drive team and everyone else be $@#$@#$@#$@#? The reality is that all of the successful teams have complex scouting systems that require close proximity. Why you would want to end technological innovation and the associated educational benefits that it creates simply because you want to be able to sit where ever you want sounds incredibly selfish.

Lastly, a huge thank you to the many teams who have, over the years, offered me a seat in "their reserved section." Many of the instances of kindness are not highlighted--we generally tend to focus on the negatives (not trying to take away from the importance of this problem, just trying to draw some attention to the positive experiences I've had in the stands at FIRST events too).

[Chinmay]

Originally Posted by Edxu

In terms of protecting seats, we're as guilty as anyone other team that fields a large group (45 students, we usually put bags on seats etc), but we've tried to change our "seat culture" recently to offer and encourage non-team members to sit in our stands. In fact, I made a few friends that I still keep in touch with today at CMP because they asked to sit in our stands and we obliged.

I think this snippet suggests a good compromise that we can hopefully adopt while waiting for FIRST to come up with the miracle cure.

I want to emphasize that team "culture" around the many things, such as how to accept loss, how to be inclusive to all members, what to do with seats in the stands etc. comes from the top down. I have noticed that problems in the stands stem from mentors and senior members telling younger kids to reserve seats, and the younger kids trying to do what their teammates suggested. Usually there is some level of miscommunication, and the rookie team member may end up fighting tooth and nail to save a spot because they think someone wanted them to do that. In reality, the mentor or parent would not have condoned or wanted that behavior to save a seat.

Clearly in some cases team leadership is actually suggesting that members should fight tooth and nail, but I think that is the minority. I dont think people are intentionally trying to be rude, my guess is that there is some level of miscommunication.

Taking a second to think about mindset like Edxu suggests can go a long way. Thanks for maturely handling the situation at champs! I hope teams can have a quick sit down with their members and go over these expectations. I will have that chat with your team at a competition in the stands in front of everyone else, but I'd much rather teams did that on their own time

[TheDoctor_1]

A suggestion:
7 or 8 additional pins are included in the packet, marked "Scouting Team". These pins allow the person access to "Scouting Row" which would be a designated area in the front of the stands. This area would be set off and patrolled by a few of the security personnel. It would be more of an exclusive area than the rest of the seating, akin to the robot queue.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

FIRST is not a monolithic entity. Of course I'm talking about changing its rules. I'm talking to FIRST here indirectly and also directly. And the only way to get a discussion going about changing its rules is to have a discussion on CD. Your are trying to shut down this discussion by saying "because FIRST said so." That is not a productive line of discussion. That's why I'm responding to you--you're responsible for your thoughts and opinions.
...
And if you're with FRC right now, then put your affiliation on your profile. Right now you have no standing in the discussion because you have no real stake. Past affiliation doesn't count.

I agree with you fully, right up until the last paragraph. As I've stated, some rules are meant to be broken. Ultimately, FRC culture has evolved in a way that makes it inherently work against the grain of the current seating rules, and that's fine. In fact, it's good, as the current culture allows teams to be together in the stands. I can't imagine how much less spirited we would be if we were all split apart, and I can't imagine how annoying it would be to hand out scouting stuff across 2 or 3 different sections.

Where I have a problem is the last few sentences. If he's involved with FRC, then he has a stake in the issue, regardless of what team he is on. Although i believe this is what you meant to say, asking him to specify what team he is with goes beyond the fundamental "yes/no" question. The question of whether he is involved with an FRC team is relevant, considering this discussion carries implications for the teams, but what team he is affiliated with has nothing to do with it. Furthermore, I disagree that past affiliation "doesn't count." Let's be honest, it's not like the seat-saving issue is a new thing. If he was affiliated with a team, and has past experiences with seat-saving while involved with that team, then he has the right to share those experiences and build an argument out of them. Perhaps those arguments shouldn't be phrased in the present-tense, but they are valid nonetheless.

[Chris is me]

... If you need your six scouts to have six seats, why don't they just sit together at the beginning of the day? Where do they have to be other than in the stands scouting? Hold your seats like everyone else who follows the rules does.

If one or two of them has to get up and go to the bathroom, other teams aren't vultures who are going to come down and take those two seats, particularly if they are scattered amongst your team already. Most people are gracious enough that if you politely say that the one seat they are sitting in was occupied by some dude who will actually be right back from the bathroom, they'll move out of courtesy and not because you made them.

You do not have to break FIRST rules to scout, and it's honestly appalling to see veteran, well respected teams encouraging the practice in this thread. It's first come first served, even if your region of the country ignores this rule...

[Basel A]

With all this discussion of scouting going on, I feel it's necessary to insert a small but practical point: I've never seen any evidence that FIRST cares one iota about scouting. I can't remember FIRST ever acknowledging it, let alone making rules/concessions around making it easier.

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I also found some teams had tons of mentors with invited guest badges. Allowing them to stand field side during matches on the dome floor. Anyone know how that works?

Sponsor or donate enough money to FIRST.

Also, Woodie Flowers award winners and local organizers.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

... If you need your six scouts to have six seats, why don't they just sit together at the beginning of the day? Where do they have to be other than in the stands scouting? Hold your seats like everyone else who follows the rules does.

Yeah, I don't get the argument of "we need to save seats because scouting is important". If you're scouting every match (which I assume you are since scouting is a key to being successful), then there shouldn't be any need to save seats.

Is the argument really "We need to save seats for our pit crew and other members so when they can sit with the team when they come to the stands. These need to be good seats because our team values scouting"?

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Is the argument really "We need to save seats for our pit crew and other members so when they can sit with the team when they come to the stands. These need to be good seats because our team values scouting"?

It seems that way.

Q: Our scouts need seats together.
A: Make sure they all arrive at the venue at the same time before the doors open.

Q: Yeah, but we need good ones.
A: Then arrive earlier.

Q: What about all the other students on the team that are coming?
A: They can arrive earlier too.

Q: And the team parents?
A: Yup, same.

Q: What about all the students who are in the pit?
A: Look, what's so hard about this?

[IronicDeadBird]

I wonder if you could just implement a backpack rule, where if you want to save a seat the seat needs to be occupied by a backpack, purse, or satchel. Not a coat, not a blanket, something that would be considered a carry on for a plane.
One bag one seat.
If you want to game the system and bring 40 extra backpacks to a competition to secure an area go ahead and bring 40 extra backpacks to secure an area. I'd actually pay to see a team force all students to carry 2 or 3 bags into the stands just to secure seats.
Actually I'm only even suggesting it because I DO want to see that scenario roll out.
Either way the best seats in the house should be saved for guests, and those with special needs. I also find it silly to think that we need to give scouts so much room when we could just share more of the scouting information we collect. Instead of having 3-4 people from every team at an event gathering the exact same data (how many high goals were made, how many low goals, did they climb) if people just shared the information we would free up a lot of seats. A cross team electronic scouting database would dissolve a lot of threads about "how do we share information at a venue without wireless" it would promote better relationships between teams, it would save paper that is turned into airplanes.
People need to realize that people that aren't on their team aren't the enemy. If you have a stranger with no team affiliation sit down with your team and you help explain the game to them and show them how things go guess who they will most likely cheer for? YOU!
Another rule that annoys me has to do with noise makers. I know you want to cheer for your team and make some noise, but my parents didn't come to an event to have their ears blown out by your stupid horns.
Its hilarious that teams will invest money into cameras and tri-pods to have a better view at the driver station, yet somehow the only way we scouts can get the information they need is if they "have a good seat".

TLR
For a group that takes pride in being GP

There is nothing gracious about these passive aggressive behaviors at competition
There is nothing professional about only living by some of the rules in the manual

[Larry Lewis]

There is nothing wrong with the current rule. It is very straight forward and clear. You cannot save seats. That being said the responsibly of enforcement should fall on the team leaders (students and adults) to make sure their team is not saving seats.

If you really want to sit in a certain section or as a group, then get their early and make sure you have enough people sitting in the stands to establish your seating area. This does not mean putting down objects to hold seats or not allowing others to sit in those seats. It means getting there early enough to get the seats you want (without running and pushing over people to get them) and allowing others that need seats to sit. The best and only way to save a seat is to be sitting in it.
This is really not hard to do.

Here are some real world examples of what your team can do to fix the problem, keeping in mind we have about 60 people in our group at competition.

Train your team:
This goes for students and adults but make sure they are aware of the rule and stress to them the importance of following it. Make sure they understand that family members of other teams, VIPs, or general public could be checking out this event and have the right to sit in our area. In fact encourage it and talk to them about the game. There is never any good reason to get into an argument or fight over a seat.

How to have your team sit together:
Make sure to enter the venue as a group and stick together. Then migrate to an area big enough to hold your team. In the arena there are plenty of areas for this. Now if this means you are not getting seats closer to the field then get their earlier. There is no reason to run or push to get the seats you want. It is disrespectful and totally against what FIRST is about.

What about having an area for scouting:
Determine where you would like scouters to sit within your group. Generally we try to put them in the back of our group since we can control better people standing and blocking them within our own group. We also do shifts so that their seats are never really vacant. If one needs to run off to do something quick someone is there to take over.

How do you keep your seats when people need to eat or walk around the event?
If you want to retain the general area you are sitting in then don’t send everyone off to eat or do something at once. If you do so you should be ok with surrendering your seats to others. Otherwise do shifts so that not everyone is gone at once. To manage this we come up with a team schedule. Which is also useful for keeping track of where everyone is during the day.

If someone does want to sit within your group let them. Odds are that it is usually no more than 5 people and they may only be there for short duration of time. So really not a big deal. Worst case scenario if the stands are full in your area, have your team members find somewhere else to sit temporarily until people filter out of your area. Again, not a big deal.

Really out of all of this the most important thing is training your team on the rules and setting the expectation that they should be respectful of others at competition. I don’t think putting more workload on FIRST or volunteers to police the stands is the answer. Teams should take on the responsibility for their actions during competition. Our lead teacher sums it up nicely by saying, “Be nice to everyone!”