FRC rules around seating need to change.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by gblake

I don't think many people would object to FIRST creating a few enclaves for scouts to use, but we really aren't talking about the scouts here, are we? We are really talking about the much larger population(s) of non-scouts. Let's not get lost in the scouting weed patch. It's one tree, and isn't the forest.

To be clear, I'm only talking about the scouts here. I've been very clear about this throughout, and it's disappointing if you are now trying to change the focal point of the discussion as you concede my primary and only point. I strongly urge teams that have lots of parents or are not scouting but participating in the larger community event to find seating elsewhere ion the arena away from the competition environment. I have clearly supported a program that reserves seats only for scouts and that the remainder of the team members should be left to find seating through other channels. I'm agnostic on how seating arrangement occurs for those other team members and supporters.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by GreyingJay

It seems that way.

Q: Our scouts need seats together.
A: Make sure they all arrive at the venue at the same time before the doors open.

Q: Yeah, but we need good ones.
A: Then arrive earlier.

Q: What about all the other students on the team that are coming?
A: They can arrive earlier too.

Q: And the team parents?
A: Yup, same.

Q: What about all the students who are in the pit?
A: Look, what's so hard about this?

So we should continue to force teams to arrive at 5 am on competition mornings, thus depriving students of up to 2 hours of sleep, so that they can get seating under your proposal? Is maintaining the current seating rule so important that we should undermine the health of our students? (And saying that they just shouldn't get up so early is a cop out--address the reality of the situation.)

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Yeah, I don't get the argument of "we need to save seats because scouting is important". If you're scouting every match (which I assume you are since scouting is a key to being successful), then there shouldn't be any need to save seats.

We largely do that already. Much of the issue is that scouts actually need breaks and will leave. We've had people than come sit in those empty seats and assert ownership. In addition, certain scouts often have multiple roles at the beginning of the day and putting their butt in a seat isn't the highest priority among those activities.

[apache8080]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

We largely do that already. Much of the issue is that scouts actually need breaks and will leave. We've had people than come sit in those empty seats and assert ownership. In addition, certain scouts often have multiple roles at the beginning of the day and putting their butt in a seat isn't the highest priority among those activities.

FIRST should dedicate seats for scouting for each team. They can give 10 seats to each team for scouting and those seats are marked as reserved for that team. In addition, these seats can be placed at the "50 yard line" of the FRC field for optimal scouting. If reserving seats is not feasible for an event, FIRST should have required cameras that stream matches at optimal angles for scouting and this stream shold be standard across all events. When FIRST made a public API it helped get a lot of raw data for scouting but they need to continue to support scouting at events by improving seating and streams.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

To be clear, I'm only talking about the scouts here. I've been very clear about this throughout, and

No you haven't been clear about this throughout, in particular in your first reaction to my post about the general topic of saving seats.

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

it's disappointing if you are now trying to change the focal point of the discussion as you concede my primary and only point.

You are welcome to be disappointed if you want, but if you go back and read carefully, you might notice that this isn't correct.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.

Blake

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by gblake

No you haven't been clear about this throughout, in particular in your first reaction to my post about the general topic of saving seats.

You are welcome to be disappointed if you want, but if you go back and read carefully, you might notice that this isn't correct.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.

Blake

No you are not.

Citrusdad your posts have been increasingly concerning.

Off from that subtopic.
After some thinking about the whole thing I realized that is was kind of messed up that FIRST did not provide better seats for volunteers during large events at championships. IE Opening Ceremonies, and Einstein/Closing Ceremonies. The volunteer section was up in the nosebleeds. Shouldn't volunteers seating be put at a higher priority then teams? I do not think many teams would object to there being a volunteer section on the lower level near the sections they reserve for teams on Einstein.

[grstex]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

You said that teams should build scouting systems that don't require sitting together. And I am telling you that will end innovation in technical development of scouting systems.

You want to continue along with the same base scouting system you've been using. He was asking you to adapt so that you no longer need to save seats (which is against the current rules) or build a system that is more flexible with the positioning of your scouts, yet HE'S the one ending innovation?

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

We largely do that already. Much of the issue is that scouts actually need breaks and will leave. We've had people than come sit in those empty seats and assert ownership. In addition, certain scouts often have multiple roles at the beginning of the day and putting their butt in a seat isn't the highest priority among those activities.

If scouting and scout positions are so important, then why not have a few students on standby as "backup scouts" who sit in the seats of your main scouts while they're taking a break? Signal/text your backup, they take your seat, you get a break.

This next bit isn't directed at you personally:
Across several related threads there are multiple reports of people getting "pushed or shoved" over "saved seats." This burns me up. Shoving people while in a theatre/stadium seating setting is not just un-GP, its not just rude, its flat out DANGEROUS! People losing their balance and falling down several steps can very easily lead to a serious head injury and a trip to the hospital! NO! NO! NO!

I don't think we need a rule change. I just think we need more awareness. Perhaps next year's game can be named "There's no saving seats!" The endgame can be musical chairs!

[Rangel]

Leave it to CD to let discussion of seat saving blow completely out of proportion. Everyone is just throwing out what they think the rules should be so I'll try and change the discussion for a bit. Is there any particular reason why having reserved seating for scouts is such a bad idea? Please don't answer with anecdotes of how the rules are now such as "come early and your scouts will have good seats". I'm saying if the rules were changed for this, would it be for the better or for worse and why?

Edit: Also only referring to championships with regards to this hypothetical rule change.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Leave it to CD to let discussion of seat saving blow completely out of proportion. Everyone is just throwing out what they think the rules should be so I'll try and change the discussion for a bit. Is there any particular reason why having reserved seating for scouts is such a bad idea? Please don't answer with anecdotes of how the rules are now such as "come early and your scouts will have good seats". I'm saying if the rules were changed for this, would it be for the better or for worse and why?

As much as I do like the idea it is extra work. I have also talked to some scouts from different teams and many have different preferences of where they like to sit. Here is my proposal that requires no more volunteers but still gets the job done.

Teams will get 7 team stickers (The removable kind) which they can stick to any seat they want and designate it as reserved. They would still probably have to arrive early to get the best seats but it would only be a single day of that. If a team has more then 7 scouts they either can forfeit the stickers. Ask for stickers from teams who are not using them or sit without the luxury of being able to save the seats. Some people may argue for more then 7 but here is the reason for the number. 1 person per robot plus a lead scout. If a team has a ton more scouters they can be in a different section and the lead scouter can bounce between the 2 sections to congregate data. Also any more then 7 per team can get out of hand quickly. At an event like worlds 7 per team is 4,200 saved seats and at a typical regional that's 420 seats. The last bit is during elims, and ceremonies the stickers are inactive and people can sit in the seat.

[Whatever]

This is kind of tangential but I was kind of surprised at how many people would walk the aisles, get out of their seats, etc during matches. The etiquette at baseball games is to wait until between at bats. Seems like there is enough time between matches to move around that the sight lines should stay clear during matches.

[dirtbikerxz]

I don't know if other regionals do this, but Lone Star has "spectator" seating. Essentially, if your team is on the field right now, you are allowed to sit there, and get up as soon as the match is done. At lone star at least, I believe that most people respect these rules, and it works out fine. I personally also like the idea of seating for scouters. A possible system might entitle: when you check in on thursday (or maybe earlier) you need to declare how many scouting seats your team needs, max of 6. Use some sort of randomizing thing, and assign seats for scouters randomly (teams are together ofcourse). Then tape reserved signs on those seats (with the assigned team number) so that there will be no fighting within that area. After that, its up to the non scouters in the team to find their own seats.

If we want to push this idea further, make some "scouting team" buttons (like drive team buttons" and you can only sit in the scouting seat if you have the right team badge......

Before people say scouting buttons are stupid (I don't actually know if people will say that ) just remember, scouting is just as important as the drive team.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by grstex

If scouting and scout positions are so important, then why not have a few students on standby as "backup scouts" who sit in the seats of your main scouts while they're taking a break? Signal/text your backup, they take your seat, you get a break.

We do already employ this in the stands more or less. Everyone at the event has a job to do and if you aren't doing something in the pits or presenting you are in the stands ready to be one of our 8 scouts every match. So we don't have much coming and going in the stands with the main exception of the non-drive team pit crew.

I feel the need to clarify what we do as a team in the stands to "save seats". Almost all of our team except the pit crew arrives at the venue an hour or more early so they are some of the first people in the door. When they get in they find a good spot in the stands and fill into a block of seats leaving a few scattered seats open, usually in the middle of whatever rows we are occupying as well as a few on the end of the row(s). Most people generally feel weird about sitting down in the middle of a group of people but are fine sitting on the end for a while to watch some matches. If someone wants to sit down with us we won't tell them no unless whoever was sitting there will be right back, most people are fine with that. This gives us at least some ability to sit as a group with a few of us coming and going periodically while not being rude about it. For lunch we will cycle the group out about half or a third at a time to keep the block of seats mostly occupied in order to discourage people from taking over the seats and protect the tablets and computers we use for scouting. While it may not overtly be saving seats, it is technically saving seats. So far herd mentality has been the best approach that we have come up with.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Basel A

With all this discussion of scouting going on, I feel it's necessary to insert a small but practical point: I've never seen any evidence that FIRST cares one iota about scouting. I can't remember FIRST ever acknowledging it, let alone making rules/concessions around making it easier.

Besides the Tableau license, it seems like scouter appreciation varies based on the event. A couple of the regionals in the Midwest (Wisconsin, at least. I think there's a few others that do this) hand out "scouter passes," and they have a dedicated seating area for scouts. The only problem is that there isn't nearly enough seats for 20-30 teams to have 7 scouts there, so it ends up not being worth the effort to get these seats. We're a team of 50-something students and 7 mentors, and at Midwest we tack on another 50 parents, sponsor reps, FTC students, etc. It's pretty hard to move that number of people fast enough to get to the best vantage point possible. A dedicated scouting area certainly has its merits, and I'd like to see FIRST show a greater appreciation for something that has become such a massive part of the culture of any successful team.

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

So we should continue to force teams to arrive at 5 am on competition mornings, thus depriving students of up to 2 hours of sleep, so that they can get seating under your proposal? Is maintaining the current seating rule so important that we should undermine the health of our students? (And saying that they just shouldn't get up so early is a cop out--address the reality of the situation.)

I'd just like to take a moment to say that I want this on a gigantic poster, in bold, italic, double underlined red text. The fact that I had to be up at 4:30AM for alliance selections at Champs was understandable, they have to cram a lot of stuff in. However, having to wake up at 5:30-6:00 for a normal day of regional quals matches is silly, not to mention this rarely is early enough for us to get good seats.

This whole thread has gone off in about a hundred different directions, so here's my opinions on the topics laid out a little more definitively:

• Seat saving is fine when it is done reasonably. Teams being together is part of the FRC culture, and it's evident when you look up from the Einstein field and see a patchwork of team colors stretching across 40,000 seats. It's awe-inspiring, not offensive.
• Scouters, and scouting in general, deserves to be recognized by FIRST. It's not like scouting is a niche thing that only the world elite teams do. Everyone does it, and it is deeply ingrained into the culture of FRC. Tableau was a nice step forward, but the place where scouting is underappreciated is at events.
• We always push the GP thing, but not everyone understands it. As people have mentioned in that harassment thread that has been going around recently, mentors and parents are to blame for rude or aggressive behavior >99% of the time. With this ridiculous proportion, I believe it is up to the students to restrain their leaders when they feel it is necessary. As a graduating student to other students, don't be afraid to call out one of your mentors if they aren't being gracious or professional. (graciously professional?) Mentors are people, very smart and dedicated people, but they aren't tyrants. On that note, and pardon me if I'm talking out of place, but... to mentors who are aggressive about seats, chill. It might be frustrating, but a little bit of patience goes a very long way.

[gblake]

...
However, having to wake up at 5:30-6:00 for a normal day of regional quals matches is silly, not to mention this rarely is early enough for us to get good seats.
...

Someone is going to wind up in the "good" seats and someone isn't. Are you saying that you want a process that ensures you get a good seat, that pushes someone else into a bad seat, and that doesn't involve you getting on line earlier than the person who will be enjoying the bad seat you think they should sit in????

You might not word it that way, but that's the net of it.

Please don't be the person who tells anyone right now that any group of ordinary spectators needs to have a few people rush in to claim and save seats so that the total group all sit in good seats when they arrive later.

Why? Because when you do that you are telling everyone else, including me, that their/my place is in the bad seats that aren't acceptable to you.

Who made the people in the rule-breaking group the special people who don't have to sit in those seats that aren't good enough for them, but are apparently good enough for the unwashed masses (the rest of us)?

That is the perception seat-saving creates in many, many, many people.

Chinmay said it well in his earlier post. That's the sort of thing that makes our beloved Jar-Jar Binks exclaim, "How rude!".

I agree that waking up at ridiculous hours to stand in queues is silly. I'm confident that most folks would endorse an improved method that made sense. FIRST could allocate seating by flipping a lot of coins, by drawing names from a fish bowl, by playing rock-paper-scissors, or by whatever other process might make sense.

In the future, however FIRST wants to allow the process to unfold is the process I'll follow; but right now the process is, "Don't save seats."

Blake

PS: If 2, 3, 5, 10, ... teams at an event habitually form a large group (a mafia? ) of seat-savers who manage to more or less equitably carve up the best/better seats at an event(s) year after year, or at multiple locations in one year; they shouldn't wear out their arms out patting themselves on the back for being gracious to one another.

At a 48 team event, those cooperative savers just told the other 46, 45, 43, 38, ... teams at the event(s) that those other teams belong in seats the savers are unwilling to sit in. They basically told all those other teams to suck it.

Again, that is the perception large-scale seat-saving creates in many, many, many people.

[PayneTrain]