FRC rules around seating need to change.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I was trying to come up with a reasonable reply myself, but in typical internet fashion the solution is cats.

How many student versus mentor and parent replies have there been to this thread? I'm curious now after Evan's post.

Back with an edit when I am done counting.

maybe 15 student posts versus 90 mentor/parent/adult

[bdaroz]

I think you were looking for this:

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by gblake

***snip***

What I'm saying is that the current "rules" (in quotes because of the prevalence of rule-breaking in this specific context) punish large teams, while providing no gain or loss to smaller teams who can get their whole team together relatively easily. (note the world "relatively," I'm sure it still is a pain) Additionally, the current seating "rules" punish scouters by forcing them into bad vantage points. Every team deserves a good spot for their scouters. I recognize that there will always be teams with good seats and teams with bad seats, but what I care about is the scouts having good seats, because they deserve more respect than what they get currently. Citrus Dad said it best earlier when he said that seats are a scarce resource that there is no fair way to allocate, but we can at lease give scouts the respect they have earned.

[Chi Meson]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

What I'm saying is that the current "rules" (in quotes because of the prevalence of rule-breaking in this specific context) punish large teams, while providing no gain or loss to smaller teams who can get their whole team together relatively easily. (note the world "relatively," I'm sure it still is a pain) ...snip...

I totally disagree. First of all it is a rule, not a "rule." And second, no it is not easy for a small team to find seats that are all together; in fact it continuously requires conflict with the rule-breakers.

If a team is large, then they MUST have enough people to get their butts into at least half of the seats they save. No team needs 30 pit scouts. I am utterly aghast at the number of "large" teams who feel that they are justified in breaking the rules (not "rule") and spirit of FIRST to send a few people (from zero to five people) with signs and posters to set aside 40, 50, 60, and as I estimated this year in Curie, 80+ seats.

I have also observed that the big block of seats "reserved" are never fully used by those teams through the majority of the matches. Looking down into those reserved blocks, there were always open seats, either totally empty or filled with coats, boxes, etc. Not only are teams breaking the rules, they are completely ungracious in their lack of awareness of how much of this commodity they are wasting.

Our team, while looking for 18 to 24 seats had to insert ourselves, each day, between such reservations. We often had to take 3 to 5 seats from such blocks of 40 to 50 "reserved" seats, and always with outward bitterness from the poor parent or student who was tasked with "holding" their reserve (there was often A mom or dad unfairly tasked with upholding that team's breaking of rules-- I always made a point of letting them know how unfair it was for their team to dump such responsibility on a few people).

We could have reserved seats too. We have signs, posters and pennants and banners. The reason why we don't is because it is against the rule. And because we followed the rule, we are forced to be the bad guys who "steal" seats.

I proposed this before, and I will do it again. Some minimal seat saving must be done, clearly, so how about this:
If your butt is in a seat, you can save the seat to your left, and the seat to your right. That is all. If you have a large team, get half of your team out there to the stands.

[Citrus Dad]

I'll wrap up my thoughts on this matter:

Just as the 55 MPH federal speed limit was unworkable (and eventually rescinded in 1987), the "no saving a seat" rule is equally unworkable for the many reasons listed here. Just saying "obey the rule" can''t overcome the strong incentives to violate it, no matter how much anyone wishes that everyone will comply.

Even FIRST sees that its unworkable. Otherwise, why would FIRST tolerate teams camping out at 4 am and allow those teams to move under the eaves in the rain? Why would FIRST fail to tell volunteers to go around and warn teams not to stake out spaces at 7 am after the doors open? Why doesn't FIRST tell all teams to take all of their equipment and belongings outside during the 2 hour lunch break? The answer is obvious--they really don't care about this rule.

That said, FIRST won't change this rule until the value is readily evident to FIRST of assigning seats in some fashion. Creating an assignment system would have costs at least in volunteer time if not in materials and other resources also. It's an axiom of resolving a tragedy of the commons that the value of defining property rights need to exceed the transaction costs of defining those rights before those rights will be defined. We probably haven't reached that point yet. There isn't enough conflict in the stands, nor embarrassing incidents with prospective sponsors. We will have to go along with teams maintaining an uneasy truce over the need to save seats for many practical reasons versus teams and spectators that may not understand those reasons.

[EricH]

Honestly, I think the best workaround is: Save seats, but allow anybody from nearby teams (or non-team spectators) to sit with you if you have the space and aren't actively using it. Save the seats... by sitting in 'em.

And then be gracious when someone asks to sit there.

[grstex]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

I'll wrap up my thoughts on this matter:

Just as the 55 MPH federal speed limit was unworkable (and eventually rescinded in 1987), the "no saving a seat" rule is equally unworkable for the many reasons listed here. Just saying "obey the rule" can''t overcome the strong incentives to violate it, no matter how much anyone wishes that everyone will comply.

Even FIRST sees that its unworkable. Otherwise, why would FIRST tolerate teams camping out at 4 am and allow those teams to move under the eaves in the rain? Why would FIRST fail to tell volunteers to go around and warn teams not to stake out spaces at 7 am after the doors open? Why doesn't FIRST tell all teams to take all of their equipment and belongings outside during the 2 hour lunch break? The answer is obvious--they really don't care about this rule.

That said, FIRST won't change this rule until the value is readily evident to FIRST of assigning seats in some fashion. Creating an assignment system would have costs at least in volunteer time if not in materials and other resources also. It's an axiom of resolving a tragedy of the commons that the value of defining property rights need to exceed the transaction costs of defining those rights before those rights will be defined. We probably haven't reached that point yet. There isn't enough conflict in the stands, nor embarrassing incidents with prospective sponsors. We will have to go along with teams maintaining an uneasy truce over the need to save seats for many practical reasons versus teams and spectators that may not understand those reasons.

I can't speak for every event, but at Lone Star we listen to complaints about excessive seat saving, and we address them.

Based on the clarifications by your teammate, I'd say y'all don't fall into the egregious category that started this thread, since y'all allow others to temporarily occupy "your area." The problem comes from people holding a dozen seats, and unwilling to give up a single one for a kid on crutches (yes, that happened last year at champs).

Have you considered the possibility that, by strictly constraining access to several regularly unoccupied seats, that those teams are artificially inflating the scarcity of seats, and thus causing this problem in the first place? Ever ride on a subway or a bus? Those seats are first come, first serve, too. But there's an unwritten rule about what a man should do if a woman boards and there's no available seats. The solution isn't assigning seats, its generosity.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by IndySam

You should be glad I have a policy of not giving out red dots.

So sorry, I do have a policy for times like this... If you are saving bulk seats, let the random few sit in them.

[dirtbikerxz]

While I would really like to see some sort of system in place, that is "fair" to assign seating, BUT I honestly can't think of a single way that this would work.

At this point, all I care about is that my team's 4-6 scouters get decent seats... I don't think it will be too hard for regionals to "rope" off an area, saying it's for scouters only, and to sit there you need to have one of your team's limited (i dont know how many there should be) "scouting buttons/badges".

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

... Just saying "obey the rule" can''t overcome the strong incentives to violate it, no matter how much anyone wishes that everyone will comply.

Each person gets to decide what they individually will do when they are tempted. Some will succumb to temptation. Some won't.

[Hitchhiker 42]

Originally Posted by Chi Meson

If you have a large team, get half of your team out there to the stands.

Just from a math perspective, even a third of the team is fine. One person saves two seats. 1/3 the team saves the other 2/3 of the team some seats.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

I was trying to come up with a reasonable reply myself, but in typical internet fashion the solution is cats.

How many student versus mentor and parent replies have there been to this thread? I'm curious now after Evan's post.

Back with an edit when I am done counting.

maybe 15 student posts versus 90 mentor/parent/adult

I think part of that is because many students who have frequented the site knows after the ref threads that their opinions arent always listened to..

At least at the two PNW events we go to (West Valley/CWU) everyone has had their general area that they sit at (for example the past two years we took a corner at WV) and we all let others come and go as they please, as long as they arent being obnoxious.

[marygoggin]

I appreciate when I am told a team will "allow" me to sits in "their" seats. FYI we have a 6 girl team. We seldom see the stands. However I would like a videotape of any team that informs my mother that she had to move from an empty seat. Prepare for an experience. I will play the video and enjoy popcorn for hours. She is old school Irish from south Chicago. Bottom line treat people as you want your mother treated. She is just as important as a team with 80 members. Of which 50 never seem to be in the seats being "saved" for them. I tell my young ladies that I donate considerable time and money to help them achieve their dream. I don't save seats. They can hire someone at their own expense for this job. I consider it training for reality.

[Alex2614]

We have a fairly large team, but we are rarely all in the stands. Our pit crew and drive team are always gone, and we have teams of students out helping other struggling teams get through inspection or get parts that they need.

At a regional, for a majority of the event, we don't have a whole lot of people in the stands (mostly parents). But when we are playing, most of us are up there. So when there are very few people in the stands, we allow people to sit next to us, because it seems many other teams around us experience the same situation. When we aren't on the field, there is no reason to deny someone the seat that's in our section, especially because they usually are just going to be there for a match or two.

So yes, I would say we "reserve seats," but it's really so that we can sit together during our matches (and even sometimes that doesn't happen, we have people spread around the arena sometimes), but all other times it is a pretty "loose" reservation. Saturday is different, though. Most of us are in the stands a majority of the day, and we make sure to leave a few seats in between us for our mentors and students on the pit crew and drive team so they have a seat with us if we are eliminated or for awards.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So when there are very few people in the stands, we allow people to sit next to us, because it seems many other teams around us experience the same situation. .

This is ironically where I see a problem and where I think there needs to be a culture change.

You can not ALLOW someone to sit with you. You can invite people to sit with you during those times but if they want to stay they can stay and you can not tell them to leave.