Drive Base Help

[OccamzRazor]

Originally Posted by ctt956

I've driven a basic robot with six 6" pnuematic wheels over wooden defenses. It was built on an AndyMark frame from 2012. For motors and gearboxes, it had two CIMs and a ToughBox Mini on each side. There were no bumpers, but it had no problem crossing defenses, even the rock wall. However, I don't think that frame would fit eight 8" wheels; there wasn't a lot of free space between the 6", so I think six 8" would be a very tight fit, if they fit at all. I haven't seen the AM chassis this year though, so it might be different.

It was an AM2014 chassis that you drove at the Zone but you bring up a good point. The old AM2012/2013 C-Channel chassis is very easily adapted for 8wd as we did do in 2012. (we later converted it to 6wd because of balancing issues)

This one is the AM2013 version which I believe had the new and improved corner brackets that made the chassis really rigid:
http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2494.htm

The newer sheet metal chassis can be modified for 8wd but you need to be really careful of where you put the support structure in between the sheet metal plates to prevent it from falling apart. Our 2014 robot had issues because the supports were not easily placed or modified on the AM2014 for what wanted in our chassis but we made it work.

[redfancy]

Wow, so much help! You guys are great!

[asid61]

Originally Posted by roboruler

Have you looked at the WCP SS gearboxes? They are about $120 for a 3CIM gearbox,that is high quality, lightweight and natively Versa-chassis compatible:

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/mo...es/wcp-ss.html

I disagree with you about cost, the VERSA-chassis will be about $780 with everything minus wheels for 8 wheels. If you are wanting to use the Andymark chassis with 8 wheels, you will need to purchase the upgrade kit which costs $300 and allows you to use 8 6inch higrip wheels. This means the total cost for the Andymark chassis is $899( Keep in mind the $599 KOP bit)

In comparison, you can make a Versa-chassis with 8 6 inch traction wheels for about $860, so roughly the same cost. But the Versa-chassis is way more versatile and you can use the same parts next year, and the year after, which you can't do at all with the KOP chassis.

If you learn how to make a WCD chassis in the off-season you can opt-out of the KOP, receive a $450 PDV from Andymark, which you can buy anything from Andymark with and be able to build a really good chassis next year, which will give you so many more options when designing your robot next.

I did look at those, and they only supply two mounting points to the versablock. I did not have enough experience to know whether 2 mounting points would be enough for it, but if somebody who's done it before can comment that would be nice.

I'm not sure about that versachassis price. What components did you plan on buying?

[redfancy]

Ok, to answer some questions:

We are planning on taking the new bot to an offseason event, probably Calgames. Our old bot ran a KoP 6WD with 8-inch pneumatics. We had major issues with our gearboxes, which happened to be the exact same 3-CIM ones suggested before. Since the only thing we could do was defense, our gearboxes took a lot of stress and it was enough to fracture and completely shred our aluminum gears. We were advised to just use 2-CIM systems in the future and also decent steel gears.
Also, we didn't secure our gearboxes very well, and that combined with the hole we had in the frame for intake resulted in the bot bowing inwards and twisting the wheels/axles out of alignment. The wheels were actually hitting the metal of the base. This was probably exacerbated by turning scrub, since all wheels were on the same level. So, we took the bot apart multiple times at competition, which was a pain with the KoP base.
We aren't trying to rebuild the same bot though-we're entirely redesigning.

Also, with 6 8-inch wheels, it was a really really tight fit. We had to trim down the bars perpendicular to the wheels so that they wouldn't hit the metal. Also, does the KoP base have pre-drilled holes that would let us drop wheels a good distance?

The AM2494 and 221's chassis seem simple and stable, but would we be able to drop wheels with them?

After reading through, we're leaning towards the VersaChassis. Also, using four Colsons and four pneumatics sounds good. When teams go over obstacles like the cheval and moat, they tend to fly over and then land. Is stress upon landing an issue with the Colsons?

Thanks so much for the help, everyone!

[carpedav000]

Originally Posted by redfancy

Ok, to answer some questions:

We are planning on taking the new bot to an offseason event, probably Calgames. Our old bot ran a KoP 6WD with 8-inch pneumatics. We had major issues with our gearboxes, which happened to be the exact same 3-CIM ones suggested before. Since the only thing we could do was defense, our gearboxes took a lot of stress and it was enough to fracture and completely shred our aluminum gears. We were advised to just use 2-CIM systems in the future and also decent steel gears.
Also, we didn't secure our gearboxes very well, and that combined with the hole we had in the frame for intake resulted in the bot bowing inwards and twisting the wheels/axles out of alignment. The wheels were actually hitting the metal of the base. This was probably exacerbated by turning scrub, since all wheels were on the same level. So, we took the bot apart multiple times at competition, which was a pain with the KoP base.
We aren't trying to rebuild the same bot though-we're entirely redesigning.

Also, with 6 8-inch wheels, it was a really really tight fit. We had to trim down the bars perpendicular to the wheels so that they wouldn't hit the metal. Also, does the KoP base have pre-drilled holes that would let us drop wheels a good distance?

The AM2494 and 221's chassis seem simple and stable, but would we be able to drop wheels with them?

After reading through, we're leaning towards the VersaChassis. Also, using four Colsons and four pneumatics sounds good. When teams go over obstacles like the cheval and moat, they tend to fly over and then land. Is stress upon landing an issue with the Colsons?

Thanks so much for the help, everyone!

The 221 system does not have a center drop, but you can easily remedy that by using smaller wheels for the outside wheels

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by redfancy

Ok, to answer some questions:

We are planning on taking the new bot to an offseason event, probably Calgames. Our old bot ran a KoP 6WD with 8-inch pneumatics. We had major issues with our gearboxes, which happened to be the exact same 3-CIM ones suggested before. Since the only thing we could do was defense, our gearboxes took a lot of stress and it was enough to fracture and completely shred our aluminum gears. We were advised to just use 2-CIM systems in the future and also decent steel gears.
Also, we didn't secure our gearboxes very well, and that combined with the hole we had in the frame for intake resulted in the bot bowing inwards and twisting the wheels/axles out of alignment. The wheels were actually hitting the metal of the base. This was probably exacerbated by turning scrub, since all wheels were on the same level. So, we took the bot apart multiple times at competition, which was a pain with the KoP base.
We aren't trying to rebuild the same bot though-we're entirely redesigning.

Also, with 6 8-inch wheels, it was a really really tight fit. We had to trim down the bars perpendicular to the wheels so that they wouldn't hit the metal. Also, does the KoP base have pre-drilled holes that would let us drop wheels a good distance?

The AM2494 and 221's chassis seem simple and stable, but would we be able to drop wheels with them?

After reading through, we're leaning towards the VersaChassis. Also, using four Colsons and four pneumatics sounds good. When teams go over obstacles like the cheval and moat, they tend to fly over and then land. Is stress upon landing an issue with the Colsons?

Thanks so much for the help, everyone!

From working the AndyMark booth at Championship, I can say you were far from alone with aluminum gear issues this year. (I'm betting you busted the smaller ones first.) Aluminum gears are a nice way to get the edge with a flat field and west coast drive, but they do run up against limitations when subjected to the abuses of this game (both the field defenses and the bigger wheels increasing the loads). If you've got the ToughBox Mini from the kit, give it a look; its steel gears will be plenty for the off-season. You can then use those lessons learned to assess how exotic next year's drivetrain needs to be. (I should point out, 4 of the 5 regional wins I've been around for were with the kit frame; 3 of the 4 had the that-year's-kit gearbox and the other ran the AndyMark 3CIM4U upgrade.)

The Team Cockamamie Robot in 3 Days build also ran an open front and saw the same frame bending you describe on a smaller scale before we parked it--it also had a way-too-small bellypan in hindsight and suffered for that. You aren't going crazy there either. Strongly consider a sturdy plywood bellypan on your offseason robot; it will lower your CG a bit and give you some great resistance against twisting and bending.

If you're using the AM14U3 with 8" pneumatic wheels, there are different hole placements and belts you're supposed to use. They sold them as a kit, which would place the axles at the correct place to avoid notching the end bumpers. It would also space the outer plates out further to cut down further on rubbing.

We didn't drive the Team Cockamamie robot on carpet or at high weight (we were waaaaaaay under), but the drop was enough for that. You can also play with air pressures there; a little less pressure in the corner wheels will increase the effective drop.

4901 used a variation on the 221 chassis for its drivetrain this year, except we knew we wanted drop (especially since our corner wheels were pushed inboard). We ended up using 1x3 tubing for the drive rails, which was overkill but suited the purpose of putting our axle holes exactly where we wanted.

Hope some of these data points help!

[messer5740]

I suggest that if you are redesigning a robot in the offseason to complete the same challenges that Stronghold had such as the moat, I would consider using the AM14U3 from andymark with the Upgrade Kit 6WD with 8" Pneumatic Wheels. This will give you suspension and a bit of bounce when going over obstacles. Just note, this drive base CANNOT go over obstacles without in house customization. Our team noticed that at the competition our robot could not cross any defenses other than the rough terrain. We used an angle grinder to cut off about an inch off of the bottom of the front of our chassis and made an angle so that when we would hit an obstacle it would pop our bot up onto the moat, ramparts, rock wall, or rough terrain, which would allow our wheels to get on top of the defense and drive over with ease. We had only gotten stuck in the moat only one match and that was when our path was obstructed with a boulder. I also suggest adding support in the middle of any chassis to ensure the sides do not cave in (just a precaution)
Hope this helps!

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by messer5740

We used an angle grinder to cut off about an inch off of the bottom of the front of our chassis and made an angle so that when we would hit an obstacle it would pop our bot up..

Originally Posted by Billfred

The Team Cockamamie Robot in 3 Days build also ran an open front and saw the same frame bending you describe..

AndyMark also sells optional upgrades for the for the AM14U2/3: a wedge plate to solve this issue, and a cross plate to help with an open front/rear. One wedge plate adds close to 3" of length to the chassis length without increasing the wheelbase, but it does help get over the category B and D defenses. I can't vouch for the cross plate.

[OccamzRazor]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

AndyMark also sells optional upgrades for the for the AM14U2/3: a wedge plate to solve this issue, and a cross plate to help with an open front/rear. One wedge plate adds close to 3" of length to the chassis length without increasing the wheelbase, but it does help get over the category B and D defenses. I can't vouch for the cross plate.

Plus they also make it easy to run the AM churro (http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-churro.htm) in between the gear boxes to stop the sagging from happening as much. Tap the ends of each rod and shove some 1/4-20 bolts in from the gearbox side. Most of the teams that had these gearbox sagging issues I noticed had nothing in between their gearboxes. Even the weight of 3 CIM motors can cause that sagging and that alone can shred a gearbox from alignment issues.

See the attached photo. Every team should be supporting their gearboxes in some way because it will also stiffen your frame up.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by redfancy

A bit of background: We had a very very rough season this year with a bot that fell apart multiple times and could barely drive, let alone play the game.

I wouldn't worry too much about how well the robot survived this years game. This years game was brutal on robots. I'm curious as to how much drive practice or stress testing was done on the robot. During build season did you ever test it against the defenses?

[redfancy]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

I'm curious as to how much drive practice or stress testing was done on the robot. During build season did you ever test it against the defenses?

Minimal testing. Very very minimal. We never had a practice bot and our drive base wasn't ready pretty much until bag and tag.

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Also, we're still confused on if it's possible to put four eight-inch pneumatics in the KoP chassis. Does it fit nicely/work with the pre-drilled holes?

[roboruler]

Originally Posted by asid61

I did look at those, and they only supply two mounting points to the versablock. I did not have enough experience to know whether 2 mounting points would be enough for it, but if somebody who's done it before can comment that would be nice.
I'm not sure about that versachassis price. What components did you plan on buying?

2 mounting points normally works fine for a normal WCD. For this years game I would recommend putting bracing between the two gearboxes.

Both the Versablock and the WCP Gearbox Bearing Block work fine with the WCP gearboxes(have used both)

In regards to the Versa-chassis pricing:

Gearboxes: $130 each( need 2) $260 total
Versa-blocks: $25 each( need 6) $ 150 total
½ hex bearing $5 each( need 16) $80 total
#25/35 chain 10foot $10 each (need 2) $20 total
#25/35 ½ hex sprocket $7 each( need 16) $112 total
WCP Cam $5 each (need 6-8) $40 total
Versaframe stock 59” $25 each (need 3+) $75 total
½ hex shaft stock 3foot $12 each (need 1) $12 total

Total = $749 before wheels

Edit: This is a cost breakdown to show the Versa-chassis price, not recommended components for a particular season

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by roboruler

2 mounting points normally works fine for a normal WCD. For this years game I would recommend putting bracing between the two gearboxes.

Both the Versablock and the WCP Gearbox Bearing Block work fine with the WCP gearboxes(have used both)

In regards to the Versa-chassis pricing:

Gearboxes: $130 each( need 2) $260 total
Versa-blocks: $25 each( need 6) $ 150 total
½ hex bearing $5 each( need 16) $80 total
#25 chain 10foot $10 each (need 2) $20 total
#25 16tooth ½ hex sprocket $7 each( need 16) $112 total
WCP Cam $5 each (need 6-8) $40 total
Versaframe stock 59” $25 each (need 3+) $75 total
½ hex shaft stock 3foot $12 each (need 1) $12 total

Total = $749 before wheels

16T #25 chain sprockets are probably too small for this year's game. They're quite undersized for the torque of 8" wheels and the shock loads of hitting defenses hard. Many, many teams have thrown chains with them this year. I would do 22T if you have the clearance, or even 12T 35 chain.

[roboruler]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

16T #25 chain sprockets are probably too small for this year's game. They're quite undersized for the torque of 8" wheels and the shock loads of hitting defenses hard. Many, many teams have thrown chains with them this year. I would do 22T if you have the clearance, or even 12T 35 chain.

Yes, I would also recommend #35 chain, it will also be easier for you to work with. Realistically I only did the list to show the price, most 1/2 hex bore sprockets are around the same price.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

16T #25 chain sprockets are probably too small for this year's game. They're quite undersized for the torque of 8" wheels and the shock loads of hitting defenses hard.

Data point: We ran 17T sprockets from 221 this year. We did throw several chains through bag-night driving and the earlier parts of Palmetto, but our analysis (imperfect as it is because you can't see inside when it happens) showed the root cause was failure at the half-link (which were of the bend-a-wire-to-pin-it-in variety, which was hitting other things inside including the other half-link). As we got more conscious of how to install the chains (and switched to better half-links), we had no problems through Orlando. And in no case did we tortuga because of the chains. (One low-bar tortuga was poor lineup, and once we lost our radio cable on a defense.)