Ftc World Championship

[Kate7351]

Excuse my rant I just needed to get this off my chest.

So while I was at Worlds, I finally really noticed how much first favors FRC over FTC. We were banished to Union Station, a small little Ballroom that was really hard to pushed through because of the amount of people. I thought the venue at first was amazing. That is until I saw the amazing venue FRC and FLL had. Walking into this area we all noticed everything was super cool and everything was decorated for the occasion. The food was amazing they had so much food there Dippin Dots and your normal sports center fare. Our place only had a small little area where you could buy drinks, chips, and candy(which nearly everyday after lunch there was somethings sold out). So for lunches, our mentor went out to get fast food.

Another thing was, FRC got all the chances to go see all of the presentations. I had no time to do any of the conferences or even go to The Innovation Fair. We were so busy everybody that we had no time at all to do anything. It was just wake up at 5 and stay there till 8.

The one thing though that really made me super angry and got on my nerves was when Dean came in to talk at the awards ceremony for FTC all he could talk about was how we were the cheapest and kept on comparing us to FRC. As me and a lot of other people said he was treating us almost like "the red headed stepbrother of FIRST". It was insane to see first hand how much first cared about FRC and FLL compared to even FTC and Jr FLL. When they did videos showcasing the whole competition we only got around 30 seconds of screen time have FRC like 2 minutes.

There was this one moment during the closing ceremonies when Dean was presenting the homework. They invited up the congressman me and my team as well as another Illinois team work with all the time. Then they talked about how there were some teams here from this district there are exactly two as they say. So me and the other team from Illinois were freaking out we thought we were going to be called up. We work with the congressman's so much he actually asks us just to call him by his first name. Sadly they called up to FRC teams.

We were all super frustrated with the situation. But this is the way it's always going to be in you're going to have to deal with it. First screws us over with everything and that's the way it's going to be forever.

[JohnFogarty]

Check your PMs.

[Clem1640]

I agree that FIRST Championship is FRC-centric. Look at the opportunity for a team to participate: it's about 20% for FRC versus about 3% for FTC. For FLL, it's significantly less than 1%. This year, I had both the FRC and FTC teams I mentor participate and so was able to see both sides. In addition, an FLL team one of my FRC students mentors was there too.

Not a justification for this lopsided allocation, but I will point out that having 30 - 40,000 people watch an FTC or FLL match live might not be a viable option. Trying to watch an FTC match from 1/4 mile just doesn't seem to work.

I'll also point out that each FRC team participating pays $5,000 to register, versus $1,000 for an FTC team. Taking into account the number of teams, FRC registration revenue is more than 10x FTC registration revenue.

[MattRain]

Join the club...

My team has used the same saying, "the red headed (*stepchild) stepbrother of FIRST," for years now. I'm hoping that this Championship Split thing will help with this issue. I loved being in the Dome back when I was a student. It was such an experience with the pits, the commute to the field, and being in a huge dome with the rest of FIRST.

In reply to OP post:
1) We had the same issues last year, with trying to go to the Dome to see vendors, teams, and watch matches.... it was impossible.
2) Video coverage is horrible in FTC. I can find multiple angles and videos of the FRC Einstein finals and winning excitement, but can find little to no video of FTC... (It's an exciting moment... why not show ours too??)

Other Posts and Rants:
I will counteract the statement made by Clem1640, sitting in the stands was no problem with FTC. Being able to watch both FTC divisions, as well as at least one other FRC field from the same seat was awesome, yet another experience of WORLDS.

As for the registration difference.... look at what FRC provides teams in regards to awards/banners/and such. My team was one of the winning teams of last years World Championship. While I don't want to sound ungrateful, there were a few things that annoyed me. After winning, the only thing we received was a trophy and some medals for winning the Davinci (Einstein equivalent) Finals. We didn't receive a Winner's banner or a trophy for winning Franklin, or get a Winner's banner for Winning the Championship. I wish FIRST would at least give Winner's banners out at Worlds (Regionals would be awesome too!). FRC on the other-hand receives all of these, both in Divisions and Einstein, as well as plaques to show. Yes the registration is more.... but its WORLDS. How much more are a few trophies and banners? The only banner FTC teams get from FIRST is Inspire..

(Our WORLDS trophy now sits with the rest of our awards.. which of course are the same size. (May add another "step" to the bottom of it, so it will stand out a bit to the others..)) (Can you tell me which one is the Worlds trophy, pic attached)
(We have since made our own banners for Winning Worlds, and Franklin division.)

[FTC5110]

Irony: FTC teams look forward to the championsplit because we might end up in the same venue as FRC again.

Why FTC finals aren't played out during the main event closing like FRC is beyond me. This omission makes it feel like a sideshow even before being shunted out of the main venue. Granted the game is a little smaller but that just makes it easier to put on the big screen. Even a demonstration match from the top 2 FLL teams would be a worthy use of 2.5 minutes.

Having taken teams to both VEX and FTC worlds last month I can definitively say [redacted]

To FIRST - Celebrate ALL your champions.

[Sperkowsky]

I will preface this by saying I do not participate in ftc although I have volunteered at multiple events.

To start cost
FTC has an annual registration cost of $275 compared to $5000 for frc
FTC teams pay $1,000 for world's where as frc pays $5,000

When you are talking about those price gaps you can not expect the same presentation value.

I can see the frustration of not being in the dome but the bottom line is frc does come first and probablt always will. It's bigger and sponsors/spectators like bigger along with it being the clear flagship program of FIRST.

Also in regards to the video angle thing I should remind you only one of those feeds are actually from first a lot of video is actuallt shot by teams. Nothing stopping you guys from doing the same.

Its a smaller scale robotics program and will be treated forever as so. I'd have to recommend vex over ftc just for the fact that you will be treated as the flagship program. Or, if you are a high school team raise some money and do FRC. I and plenty others would be willing to help.

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

To start cost
FTC has an annual registration cost of $275 compared to $5000 for frc
FTC teams pay $1,000 for world's where as frc pays $5,000

When you are talking about those price gaps you can not expect the same presentation value.

Um... FTC takes up less than 1/5 of the area and resources FRC does so that's not a great argument you present. FTC annual registration doesn't include a KOP.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I can see the frustration of not being in the dome but the bottom line is frc does come first and probablt always will. It's bigger and sponsors/spectators like bigger along with it being the clear flagship program of FIRST.

Stuff I don't want to publish

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Its a smaller scale robotics program and will be treated forever as so. I'd have to recommend vex over ftc just for the fact that you will be treated as the flagship program. Or, if you are a high school team raise some money and do FRC. I and plenty others would be willing to help.

More stuff I don't want to publish

[Clem1640]

I was not suggesting that there is no reason for valid complaints. I think there are. I think that these are more associated with the relative difficulties in qualifying for FTC championships than the amenities of the venues and quality of awards.

And the higher revenue of additional FRC teams vis-à-vis FTC teams may be as much a driver for FIRST's expansion of FRC Championships from 400 to 800 teams than an explanation for better venue.

Still...

$1.5M will buy a better/bigger venue than $128K.

Operating an FRC team requires a much larger budget and mentor base than FTC. I operate both, so I know this. My season FTC registration & event registration costs were $2,325 for (6) events (3 Quals, State Champ, Super-Regional & FTC Champ). My season FRC registration & event costs registration costs were $14,500 for (5) events (3 District Quals, District Champ & FRC Champ). This is a significant difference.

A key benefit of the FTC program over FRC is the lower cost and investment required to run the program. FTC can be run with less "variable cost" (registration, materials & parts), fewer mentors, and lower capital investment (mills, lathes, welders, etc.). This makes the FTC program more accessible than FRC.

Due to VEX, FTC also competes in a far more competitive market than FRC. There are a lot more VEX teams in my immediate area than FTC, and they operate on a significantly lower budget. Making FTC more expensive would seem to be an untenable path.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

Um... FTC takes up less than 1/5 of the area and resources FRC does so that's not a great argument you present. FTC annual registration doesn't include a KOP.

The kop is mostly (almost all iirc) sponsored parts. And that extra 5k for Champs has nothing to do with it.

If you want better presentation you pay more it's as simple as that.

[MattRain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I will preface this by saying I do not participate in ftc although I have volunteered at multiple events.

To start cost
FTC has an annual registration cost of $275 compared to $5000 for frc
FTC teams pay $1,000 for world's where as frc pays $5,000

When you are talking about those price gaps you can not expect the same presentation value.

Most people always use this "registration" cost argument.

Lets look at this in the most basic terms of getting a working robot together, and calendar, for a chance to WORLDS.

FRC registration includes: ($5,000)
1) General Registration
2) Multiple Kit of Parts (Enough to build a basic robot)
3) 1 regional (2 district events)
4) Game pieces
(*Total $9000 if District state.)

FTC Budget for Basic Robot and registration
1) Registration: $275
2) Qualifier: $100-200 dollars per event (2 or 3 qualifiers for most teams)
3) Regional: 175-300 dollars
4) Super Regional: $500 registration not including travel.
5) Basic Tetrix or Actobotics: $2000
6) Basic Game Pieces and Motors from Andymark: $400
7) Basic Electronics from Modern Robotics: $350
8) ZTE Phones (Our RoboRio...): $80
FTC Basic Budget: $4000-5000 ($4,505 if you had 1 registration, 3 qualifiers at 200, 1 regional at 300, 1 super regional, and robot supplies.)

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by MattRain

Most people always use this "registration" cost argument.

Lets look at this in the most basic terms of getting a working robot together, and calendar, for a chance to WORLDS.

FRC registration includes: ($5,000)
1) General Registration
2) Multiple Kit of Parts (Enough to build a basic robot)
3) 1 regional (2 district events)
4) Game pieces

FTC Budget for Basic Robot and registration
1) Registration: $275
2) Qualifier: $100-200 dollars per event (2 or 3 qualifiers for most teams)
3) Regional: 175-300 dollars
4) Super Regional: $500 registration not including travel.

5) Basic Tetrix or Actobotics: $2000
6) Basic Game Pieces and Motors from Andymark: $400
7) Basic Electronics from Modern Robotics: $350
8) ZTE Phones (Our RoboRio...): $80
FTC Basic Budget: $4000-5000 ($4,505 if you had 1 registration, 3 qualifiers at 200, 1 regional at 300, 1 super regional, and robot supplies.)

Enough to build a basic robot? Umm no.

It does not include all of the control system in fact this year all we got from the virtual kit and kop was a radio, and a pdb. We still had to pay close to $1,000 for the rest of the control system. Not to mention all of the metal, motors, and other parts needed to build an Frc robot.

Let's not forget all of our $10,000 is going straight to First. All that's going to First from you guys is $1,375.

You budgeted $2,000 for tetrix which for many is a one time expense. All the ftc teams I know take their bots apart and reuse the tetrix stuff.

Frc teams easily coast 5-10 times that on an ftc team which is why ftc exists. I'd waste time going through what we have to budget for but it's a lost cause.

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Frc teams easily coast 5-10 times that on an ftc team which is why ftc exists. I'd waste time going through what we have to budget for but it's a lost cause.

And I'm sure you get at least 5-10 times student inspiration outcomes as well but no need to waste your time going through that.

[MattRain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Enough to build a basic robot? Umm no.

It does not include all of the control system in fact this year all we got from the virtual kit and kop was a radio, and a pdb. We still had to pay close to $1,000 for the rest of the control system. Not to mention all of the metal, motors, and other parts needed to build an Frc robot.

Let's not forget all of our $10,000 is going straight to First. All that's going to First from you guys is $1,375.

You budgeted $2,000 for tetrix which for many is a one time expense. All the ftc teams I know take their bots apart and reuse the tetrix stuff.

Frc teams easily coast 5-10 times that on an ftc team which is why ftc exists. I'd waste time going through what we have to budget for but it's a lost cause.

While I know what kind of money it takes to run an FRC team, I'm just going to leave it at a few points.

1) Brand New FRC control system was in the KOP last year.... FTC was not given anything this year, for the new system. (Most world FTC teams spent close to $1000 in parts because the new system is CRAP and Modern Robotics has a monopoly on FTC.) (I was being nice with the $350)
2) Part of the $5000 Registration goes toward running an FRC Regional, where FTC Partners in their states have to scrape together money through more state wide registration costs.
3) Super Regional adds to registration and travel costs.
4) While Tetrix Kits of parts can be reused, and most teams do reuse it, you still have to buy into it as a new team. (More teams are starting to build their robots on an FRC scale, custom to keep costs down)
5) Up until 2 years ago, we had a small spot in the Dome. Moved out to bring in more money through FRC teams, shoved in a corner (quite literally, with no sitting/standing room space in the stands or pits) and 5 miles away.
6) Hard to inspire the students when their Super Regional's are of better quality than that of FTC Worlds, plus with the lower costs.

I'm not going to continue arguing on a few basic things that FIRST could look into, to help us not feel like "the redheaded stepchild" at WORLDS.

[Foster]

[budget discussions]
.... <snip>
[/budget]

I think we all agree that the FIRST programs are not the low cost budget programs.

And FIRST event budgets have been beat to death in other places. (There should really be a FAQ post about how the money flows with registration, KoP, District fees, who really pays for DCMP and Regionals, etc.)

What's missing is Kate7351's point is that the FTC roboteers work hard and that when the get to Worlds they don't feel special. FIRST pushes hard on FLL to make it the premier program for younger roboteers. There isn't a roboteer family or a want to be roboteer that does not know about FLL.

Likewise for FRC. FIRST markets this program and we all love FRC even though it's expensive. They have been marketing FTC as a low cost way to "do FIRST robotics" and it's all kissy kissy. But at Worlds not so much love according to Kate7351.

Kate7351 is trying to raise awareness so that at 1/2 Champs 2017 FIRST raises the visibility of FTC. Kate7351 doesn't want a 1/2 baked effort in 2016 to be 1/2 baked next year. (And for you fractions fans that will be 1/4 baked).

So it's not about budgets and "dollars per roboteers inspired". It's about celebrating the roboteers you have now. These roboteers are FRC's pipeline.

Kate7351 has given the heads up. Pay attention, or I'll be hanging out with Kate7351 at the 2018 VEX worlds.

[MattRain]

Originally Posted by Foster

[budget discussions]
.... <snip>
[/budget]

I think we all agree that the FIRST programs are not the low cost budget programs.

And FIRST event budgets have been beat to death in other places. (There should really be a FAQ post about how the money flows with registration, KoP, District fees, who really pays for DCMP and Regionals, etc.)

What's missing is Kate7351's point is that the FTC roboteers work hard and that when the get to Worlds they don't feel special. FIRST pushes hard on FLL to make it the premier program for younger roboteers. There isn't a roboteer family or a want to be roboteer that does not know about FLL.

Likewise for FRC. FIRST markets this program and we all love FRC even though it's expensive. They have been marketing FTC as a low cost way to "do FIRST robotics" and it's all kissy kissy. But at Worlds not so much love according to Kate7351.

Kate7351 is trying to raise awareness so that at 1/2 Champs 2017 FIRST raises the visibility of FTC. Kate7351 doesn't want a 1/2 baked effort in 2016 to be 1/2 baked next year. (And for you fractions fans that will be 1/4 baked).

So it's not about budgets and "dollars per roboteers inspired". It's about celebrating the roboteers you have now. These roboteers are FRC's pipeline.

Kate7351 has given the heads up. Pay attention, or I'll be hanging out with kate7351 at the 2018 VEX worlds.

Well said!