Quitting FRC for Vex?

[Fusion_Clint]

All the programs have pro's and con's.

This year we had 5 FTC teams and 1 FRC team.

With the FTC change over to android and java this year, it was a real steep learning curve for my new to robotics kids. I am considering starting a VRC team next year for my new kids with zero robotics experience. The plus to VRC is a legit curriculum to help. The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX.

I really like the freedom FTC gives the teams to manufacture their own parts 3D print, CNC, welding, whatever means available. The kids learning these skills enable a FTC student to be more productive quicker to an FRC team. The minus is there just isn't very good resources to help teachers.

Both FTC and VEX allow for great iterational improvements, but they also play into high schools students biggest weakness, procrastination.

FRC is best at mentor to student interaction and working under pressure. The students actually get to work with professionals in the career field the student is interested in. To be successful you must have a dedicated group of mentors. You can get the mentors because you are only asking for 6 weeks from most of them. In my opinion FRC is the pentacle of high school robotics. I have seen some amazing VRC and FTC robots, but a top tier FRC robot is a thing of beauty.

The only students I have had that choose VEX or FTC instead of FRC just didn't have the time to dedicate to the team during build season. YMMV

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

... The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX. ... YMMV

VRC does allow you to make custom parts, but for various reasons, they limit the type and amount of raw material you can use.

Making one or two crucial custom parts is possible. Making most of the bot from scratch, or from non-VEX COTS isn't possible (although you can cut and bend the stock VEX parts as much as you like).

About some of the other points you made, your "YMMV" ending is exactly right.

The way I like to look at things, just because you aren't forced to do something doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it.

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.

That flexibility to choose between simple and complex either in a single season and/or across seasons can be very liberating.

Blake

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by gblake

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.
Blake

I agree, but real life plays a factor. Mentors have jobs and lives so the hours they can put in is limited.

Companies are attracted to the big robots. They are willing to let their employees take time to work on something that looks cool on the news and reflects well on the company. You have to have the right mentor and company to get that for FTC and VRC.

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

All the programs have a place depending on your program goals and resources.

[Foster]

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

In year two, I can only start 4 more teams, but I'm up to 10 teams and sending 2 to worlds. In year two I'm looking at 50 roboteers 25 active parents

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

Which is the road to fail. Look at groups like the Downingtown VEXMen. 38 teams, 200+ roboteers, 70+ parents, 0 teachers. If I ask an adult who cares more about your child, me, you, the teacher, I get the parent. VEX isn't hard to learn I teach parents all the time. Parents can be mentors, you don't need 1000's of hours of experience.
In year three, we are holding our own events (saving 50 per event for 10 teams) and starting 4 more teams. So up to 14 teams, 70 roboteers, 35 active parents.

This year you are "limited" to 1 sheet 12x24 of polycarb. They are looking at letting teams 3D Print.

I don't see a limitation on the parts being a limitation, more of a design constraint. YMMV.

I like to say "Come to the dark side, we have cookies", but in reality, I don't try to take roboteers from FIRST to VEX. I often will send someone to a FLL or FTC team because they are closer or their school supports it. Over 95% of the possible roboteers are not in any program. I'm not going to go grab your pie, there is more pie than any of us could eat untouched.

All the programs have their pros and cons, figure out which one works for you, grab a few 1000 roboteers and GO!

It is not much more effort to run 2-5 teams as it is to run 1. So run more!

[IndySam]

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

If anything I have posted has been taken as me promoting one vs the other I apologise. I'm just posting the pluses and minuses (as I see them) of both programs.

It is up to the individual programs to decide what is right for their goals.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

This sums it up perfectly.
Except, I would add that FIRST does have clues, but unwilling in certain areas where they could provide additional support for teams.
The fact that FIRST isnt as scalable as VEX compounds the situation.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by Foster

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.
...

Again, I agree with your earlier "YMMV".

That said, I think it's a mistake (an understandable one, but a mistake nonetheless) to say that any STEM robotics program doesn't allow students to do any and all of the things you listed, or to say that any program limits activities to any particular period of a year.

All the programs I have ever heard about are officially delighted to be just a foundation for doing more than what they explicitly "require" or measure.

The advantage of the simple programs is that you can start small, and then go as far as your imagination and inspiration take you. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, you have to supply your own motivation

The advantage of the complex programs is that (if you have your ducks in a row), they "force" you to go far. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, a misstep or two can derail an entire season's efforts.

Blake

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

I don't think this thread needs to generate into "mine is better" posts. But the thread subject is "quitting FRC for Vex" and reasons why teams might do so, so we will definitely be inviting comparisons between the two and evaluations of what you get for the money in each.

There are not many FRC teams to begin with in my city, and at least one of them has already converted fully to Vex, another has temporarily put their FRC program on hold and continuing with Vex, and another runs an FRC team but also runs Vex teams, and runs the local Vex kickoff and competition events at their school. I hope they'll continue with FRC as well, but if something has to get cut, you can see which it would be.

[jman4747]

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by jman4747

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

1) The University of South Carolina offers scholarships to FRC and FTC participants. It would be a little peculiar for us to be doing an on-campus outreach program that wasn't aligned with that.

2) Our leading sponsors are invested heavily in the FIRST program. Such a radical departure in our program would surely trigger a review of that financial support, and likely the loss of it.

3) Our build space was originally structured for FRC, and we didn't intend to rock the boat by doing a different program. (FTC probably would've been a good fit for us, if we were starting from a clean sheet--but we had five years of FRC legacy on campus from 2815's time on campus.)

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by jman4747

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

To answer this question I will refer back to the quote I took from Fusion_Clint:

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

and this one:

Originally Posted by gblake

We agreed that he/they would be giving up on the flashy circus side of FRC tournaments (unless he took his students as spectators). His thoughts about that were that he was more than willing to live with the reduced flashiness of a typical, local VRC tournament, if what he got in exchange was being able to look across the fields and pits, and see all of his students driving or working on robots, instead of sitting in the stands watching a handful of their classmates doing that.

The programs give different experiences to the students. I heard someone once say that "FRC is not about robotics. FRC is a life experience that involves robotics". And when I look back on what FRC is doing for the students I work with, I think that "learning to build/program robots" is actually pretty low on the list. Our students are learning more about how to outreach and connect with the community, how to work on teams, how to work on imbalanced teams, how to work under pressure, how to communicate an idea, how to manage their time, how large projects are structured and how each person fits into that. It's much more like how the real world operates.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

With the FTC change over to android and java this year, it was a real steep learning curve for my new to robotics kids. I am considering starting a VRC team next year for my new kids with zero robotics experience. The plus to VRC is a legit curriculum to help. The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX.

Credits

[jman4747]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Credits

Mark off "eliminate bag day"