Quitting FRC for Vex?

[mrnoble]

I've heard rumblings of this for the past several years. My own team is quite happy continuing with FRC, but the other competition we have participated in since 2009 (BEST) will be no longer part of our plan for the coming school year, as we are intending to add Vex teams instead. I am sincerely curious if any other FRC teams are adding Vex, or are thinking about leaving FRC in favor of Vex. If you are and feel that you can share, would you mind saying what your reasons are, both positive (Vex is fun, for instance) and negative (the expense of FRC is too great, perhaps). Thanks.

[Landonh12]

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

[EmileH]

Originally Posted by Landonh12

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

The legendary Team 40 had VRC programs from 2004 on, but stopped their FRC program after 2010. They continue to participate in Vex.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Landonh12

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

My old team is considering a full switch to Vex. Their primary motivation is that they can run 4-6 vex teams for the cost of a single FRC team which gets more of the 40 students involved in the nitty-gritty design. Additionally longer build season allows for a more relaxed pace. No bag and tag rules make it more attractive as well.

I'm not a huge fan of 100% Vex, but it makes sense from some perspectives.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I've heard rumblings of this for the past several years. My own team is quite happy continuing with FRC, but the other competition we have participated in since 2009 (BEST) will be no longer part of our plan for the coming school year, as we are intending to add Vex teams instead. I am sincerely curious if any other FRC teams are adding Vex, or are thinking about leaving FRC in favor of Vex. If you are and feel that you can share, would you mind saying what your reasons are, both positive (Vex is fun, for instance) and negative (the expense of FRC is too great, perhaps). Thanks.

A few years ago, I spoke to an FRC school team's teacher/headmentor. They were participating in both FRC and VRC. He said he/they were going to drop FRC because:

• VRC made it much easier and cheaper for him to make all of his students members of teams in which every member is expected to make hands-on contributions to their team's STEM product.
• VRC made it possible for all members of a team to be intimately involved in their team's actual performance during competitions.
• In his location it was easy (and relatively cheap) for his several teams to participate in several nearby formal tournaments, off-season tournaments, and scrimmage events.

For his STEM robotics program (that I think was integrated at least semi-formally into his school's curriculum) he was asserting that he got more bang per buck per student, plus a few other upsides.

We agreed that he/they would be giving up on the flashy circus side of FRC tournaments (unless he took his students as spectators). His thoughts about that were that he was more than willing to live with the reduced flashiness of a typical, local VRC tournament, if what he got in exchange was being able to look across the fields and pits, and see all of his students driving or working on robots, instead of sitting in the stands watching a handful of their classmates doing that.

Originally Posted by Landonh12

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

In my (limited) experience the folks who choose VRC over FRC usually aren't very interested in maximizing the complexity of the work a few team members do. They instead usually want to maximize the number of students who get a chance to try their hand at high school level STEM topics.

They focus on giving lots of students a good-enough taste of STEM topics, not on having a smaller number of students dive deeply into one complex problem.

Remember - It's not (supposed to be) about the robot. It's (supposed to be) about getting more students to give STEM a try, and for them to enjoy what happens when they do.

There is a place in the world for both programs. Each serves a purpose, and satisfies a need. There are definitely student who look for tougher (than FTC/VRC) challenges before they graduate high school. If the funds, mentors, and other prerequisites are in place, FRC is a great capstone to put on top of a solid VRC/FTC base.

Blake

[Fusion_Clint]

All the programs have pro's and con's.

This year we had 5 FTC teams and 1 FRC team.

With the FTC change over to android and java this year, it was a real steep learning curve for my new to robotics kids. I am considering starting a VRC team next year for my new kids with zero robotics experience. The plus to VRC is a legit curriculum to help. The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX.

I really like the freedom FTC gives the teams to manufacture their own parts 3D print, CNC, welding, whatever means available. The kids learning these skills enable a FTC student to be more productive quicker to an FRC team. The minus is there just isn't very good resources to help teachers.

Both FTC and VEX allow for great iterational improvements, but they also play into high schools students biggest weakness, procrastination.

FRC is best at mentor to student interaction and working under pressure. The students actually get to work with professionals in the career field the student is interested in. To be successful you must have a dedicated group of mentors. You can get the mentors because you are only asking for 6 weeks from most of them. In my opinion FRC is the pentacle of high school robotics. I have seen some amazing VRC and FTC robots, but a top tier FRC robot is a thing of beauty.

The only students I have had that choose VEX or FTC instead of FRC just didn't have the time to dedicate to the team during build season. YMMV

[JohnFogarty]

Long story short. Aiken County Robotics lost the funding needed and the leadership needed to run a FRC level team. Why they are quitting FTC too actually is somewhat intertwined with this discussion. Vex seems to have very effectively obliterated the opportunities for growth in FTC in SC. It's not necessarily a terrible thing, but a reality in my opinion nonetheless.

Aiken County Robotics did discover that Vex has become huge in SC since it got funded by Palmetto Partners like some 13 odd local events pre-state championship. It still amazes me because FTC still hasn't grown beyond 30 teams and 1 event in SC since maybe 2010?

Vex is now the most cost effective, and successful robotics competition in South Carolina, and soon if not already to be so in the world.

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by EmileH

The legendary Team 40 had VRC programs from 2004 on, but stopped their FRC program after 2010. They continue to participate in Vex.

2011 was their last year participating in FRC. A team from a smaller private school, their main sponsor provided them with a shop in another location. When that sponsor moved out of the area, they had no workplace suitable. They currently still work out of that school for the VEX stuff though. And Dan Larochelle is still involved with much of the VEX stuff that happens in the region.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

... The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX. ... YMMV

VRC does allow you to make custom parts, but for various reasons, they limit the type and amount of raw material you can use.

Making one or two crucial custom parts is possible. Making most of the bot from scratch, or from non-VEX COTS isn't possible (although you can cut and bend the stock VEX parts as much as you like).

About some of the other points you made, your "YMMV" ending is exactly right.

The way I like to look at things, just because you aren't forced to do something doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it.

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.

That flexibility to choose between simple and complex either in a single season and/or across seasons can be very liberating.

Blake

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Vex is now the most cost effective, and successful robotics competition in South Carolina.

By having several curriculums written and mostly free of charge, VEX has a huge advantage over FTC (which is the real competitor). If FTC teams don't have a really dedicated mentor or students willing to really learn the systems that team is in trouble.

Where any teacher with a little bit of technical ability can teach based on the VEX curriculum and field a successful team.

FTC is missing the boat; they need a legit curriculum asap. From what I have seen a lot of the really successful FTC teams are home schooled. Which is parents and students wanting to learn. If FTC really wants into the public schools they need to help the teachers.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Aiken County Robotics lost the funding needed and the leadership needed to run a FRC level team.

Running a few VRC teams sounds like a beautiful way to grow the infrastructure needed to run a successful FRC team, even if the FRC team perhaps only competes every second or third year to save money (and to save wear and tear on mentors).

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by gblake

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.
Blake

I agree, but real life plays a factor. Mentors have jobs and lives so the hours they can put in is limited.

Companies are attracted to the big robots. They are willing to let their employees take time to work on something that looks cool on the news and reflects well on the company. You have to have the right mentor and company to get that for FTC and VRC.

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

All the programs have a place depending on your program goals and resources.

[Foster]

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

In year two, I can only start 4 more teams, but I'm up to 10 teams and sending 2 to worlds. In year two I'm looking at 50 roboteers 25 active parents

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

Which is the road to fail. Look at groups like the Downingtown VEXMen. 38 teams, 200+ roboteers, 70+ parents, 0 teachers. If I ask an adult who cares more about your child, me, you, the teacher, I get the parent. VEX isn't hard to learn I teach parents all the time. Parents can be mentors, you don't need 1000's of hours of experience.
In year three, we are holding our own events (saving 50 per event for 10 teams) and starting 4 more teams. So up to 14 teams, 70 roboteers, 35 active parents.

This year you are "limited" to 1 sheet 12x24 of polycarb. They are looking at letting teams 3D Print.

I don't see a limitation on the parts being a limitation, more of a design constraint. YMMV.

I like to say "Come to the dark side, we have cookies", but in reality, I don't try to take roboteers from FIRST to VEX. I often will send someone to a FLL or FTC team because they are closer or their school supports it. Over 95% of the possible roboteers are not in any program. I'm not going to go grab your pie, there is more pie than any of us could eat untouched.

All the programs have their pros and cons, figure out which one works for you, grab a few 1000 roboteers and GO!

It is not much more effort to run 2-5 teams as it is to run 1. So run more!

[IndySam]

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

If anything I have posted has been taken as me promoting one vs the other I apologise. I'm just posting the pluses and minuses (as I see them) of both programs.

It is up to the individual programs to decide what is right for their goals.