Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony

[Banderoonies]

One thing to keep in mind is: How did the winner approach the men? Did she strongly approach and put out her hand for a shake? Because if she did, it would have been met with a handshake.

All this Political Correctness is paralyzing our society. There is no definitive right and wrong because everyone has a different idea of what "right" and "wrong" is.

[Michael Corsetto]

The way Dean, Woodie and Don greeted the 2016 Dean's List Finalists irked my wife and I as well.

I'm not usually vocal around these topics, but when you greet 20 young professionals in a row, I believe a handshake is the baseline, acceptable way to convey appreciation and recognition.

That said, some students may have an overwhelming sense of jubilation, which prompts them to initiate some sort of less-than-professional (but still authentic) expression such as a hug. That is great!

The issue was, women got the default arms out for a hug from Dean, while men got the hand stretched out for a shake.

Also, as a YPP trained professional, I work to avoid "frontal hugging", especially with young women, and especially with young women I do not know. I would certainly not be the one to intiate the hug in front of many other mentors and students.

This is not your uncle hugging their niece. These are professionals congratulating young professionals on their accomplishments. It should be treated as such, and serve as a model to all the mentors and students watching the ceremony.

-Mike

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

The way Dean, Woodie and Don greeted the 2016 Dean's List Finalists irked my wife and I as well.

I'm not usually vocal around these topics, but when you greet 20 young professionals in a row, I believe a handshake is the baseline, acceptable way to convey appreciation and recognition.

That said, some students may have an overwhelming sense of jubilation, which prompts them to initiate some sort of less-than-professional (but still authentic) expression such as a hug. That is great!

The issue was, women got the default arms out for a hug from Dean, while men got the hand stretched out for a shake.

Also, as a YPP trained professional, I work to avoid "frontal hugging", especially with young women, and especially with young women I do not know. I would certainly not be the one to intiate the hug in front of many other mentors and students.

This is not your uncle hugging their niece. These are professionals congratulating young professionals on their accomplishments. It should be treated as such, and serve as a model to all the mentors and students watching the ceremony.

-Mike

Well said, Mike. I noticed it too, as did some other mentors I was discussing this with. This hugging of the Dean's list girls and shaking hands with the boys was very uncomfortable.

For me, if I greet a boy or man, it's not too hard to know if we are gonna hug or not. I am very comfortable hugging a man, especially if he is my friend.

If the other person is a boy, girl, or woman, I wait to take their cue if the greeting will be a hug or not. It depends on the situation and relationship. I definitely should not expect or initiate a hug when greeting a female colleague.

I agree that this is not a trivial issue.

Andy B.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

The way Dean, Woodie and Don greeted the 2016 Dean's List Finalists irked my wife and I as well.

I'm not usually vocal around these topics, but when you greet 20 young professionals in a row, I believe a handshake is the baseline, acceptable way to convey appreciation and recognition.

That said, some students may have an overwhelming sense of jubilation, which prompts them to initiate some sort of less-than-professional (but still authentic) expression such as a hug. That is great!

The issue was, women got the default arms out for a hug from Dean, while men got the hand stretched out for a shake.

Also, as a YPP trained professional, I work to avoid "frontal hugging", especially with young women, and especially with young women I do not know. I would certainly not be the one to intiate the hug in front of many other mentors and students.

This is not your uncle hugging their niece. These are professionals congratulating young professionals on their accomplishments. It should be treated as such, and serve as a model to all the mentors and students watching the ceremony.

-Mike

Well said. The 'frontal hugging' is something any sensible mentor knows isn't something we should be initiating, so why are the adults up on stage doing it?

It bothers me too. It happens with Male vs. Female VIPS/speakers as well.

I don't think that it's any sort of intentional slight or conscious choice by Dean, Don or Woodie - but as others have said earlier in the thread, it's just the way they've been taught to interact throughout their lives. Not trying to make an excuse... the behavior should change. It may truly be something they've never even thought about.

Another, entirely separate thing that bothers me is that it's all old (sorry guys, just tellin' it like it is) white men up there, and there's no diversity in the people who are giving out the award. To me, that emphasizes the divide even more. That horse has probably been beaten enough, but against the backdrop of 20 very diverse, outstanding student leaders across FIRST programs, it really stood out to me this year.

[Mastonevich]

I noticed that female = hugs, male = handshake, and apparently many others did also. It didn't appear to be based on body language as many have indicated on this thread. From my viewpoint it gave me an uncomfortable feeling.

[Sperkowsky]

I am not going to comment on the hugging thing.

Originally Posted by Libby K

Another, entirely separate thing that bothers me is that it's all old (sorry guys, just tellin' it like it is) white men up there, and there's no diversity in the people who are giving out the award. To me, that emphasizes the divide even more. That horse has probably been beaten enough, but against the backdrop of 20 very diverse, outstanding student leaders across FIRST programs, it really stood out to me this year.

I totally see your point. However, Dean and woodie founded this program and Don leads it. They all happen to be as you said old white men. However, what Is the use of throwing another person up there for the sake of diversity.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I am not going to comment on the hugging thing.

I totally see your point. However, Dean and woodie founded this program and Don leads it. They all happen to be as you said old white men. However, what Is the use of throwing another person up there for the sake of diversity.

I'm certainly not saying FIRST should have someone on stage 'just for the sake of' diversity. But someone (or a few someones) from their Board of Directors might be nice to have on stage - it would make FIRST and its leadership look a little more welcoming to minorities than the current stage setup.

However, that's not the topic at hand here - sorry for derailing.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I am not going to comment on the hugging thing.


I totally see your point. However, Dean and woodie founded this program and Don leads it. They all happen to be as you said old white men. However, what Is the use of throwing another person up there for the sake of diversity.

Please, educate Libby more about who founded and runs the program.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Please, educate Libby more about who founded and runs the program.

I feel like this is becoming a growing problem that seems more prevalent than ever before. It seems as if anyone questions, opposes, or even just debate an elite in the community, there is always someone or a group that jumps on that person. Sorry for derailing the thread but I am really sick of seeing comments like these. Perhaps topic for another thread. Just seems like I see more of this than any other year before.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

I feel like this is becoming a growing problem that seems more prevalent than ever before. It seems as if anyone questions, opposes, or even just debate an elite in the community, there is always someone or a group that jumps on that person. Sorry for derailing the thread but I am really sick of seeing comments like these. Perhaps topic for another thread. Just seems like I see more of this than any other year before.

Oh come on, that was hardly an attack.

It was a humorous (to me at least) comment pointing out that the the person replying to Libby was clearly unaware of her relation (and knowledge of) to the people named.

I've said some uncalled for things on chief, but this wasn't it.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

...I totally see your point. However, Dean and woodie founded this program and Don leads it. They all happen to be as you said old white men. However, what Is the use of throwing another person up there for the sake of diversity.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Please, educate Libby more about who founded and runs the program.

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

I feel like this is becoming a growing problem that seems more prevalent than ever before. It seems as if anyone questions, opposes, or even just debate an elite in the community, there is always someone or a group that jumps on that person. Sorry for derailing the thread but I am really sick of seeing comments like these. Perhaps topic for another thread. Just seems like I see more of this than any other year before.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Oh come on, that was hardly an attack.

It was a humorous (to me at least) comment pointing out that the the person replying to Libby was clearly unaware of her relation (and knowledge of) to the people named.

I've said some uncalled for things on chief, but this wasn't it.

(I really didn't want to become that guy but...)

I think you're misreading Sperkowsky's post, and that led to a snapback that probably wasn't merited. It reads to me like a question about tokenism, which is a legitimate concern as groups try to be more welcoming of diverse groups.

(As the Dean's List Award is given by the Kamen family, as it says on the certificates, FIRST would certainly have grounds to have Evelyn or Ruth or Libby on the stage which would at least break the old-white-men streak. That said, I also know their dance card gets full during Championship so I'm not going to lead that draft movement.)

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Oh come on, that was hardly an attack.

It was a humorous (to me at least) comment pointing out that the the person replying to Libby was clearly unaware of her relation (and knowledge of) to the people named.

I've said some uncalled for things on chief, but this wasn't it.

Its humorous to me that after all the time I spend here and around the community you would think I would not know her relation.

Your statement in my opinion was rude and uncalled for.

[Akash Rastogi]

Oh my god please shut up about the tangent already.

[Jack S.]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Oh my god please shut up about the tangent already.

Not yet! I only need one more square for bingo!

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Billfred

This is pretty much what it boils down to. 4901 has huggers, and 4901 has anti-huggers. It doesn't break down along gender lines, and I imagine we aren't alone there. Was this some concerted plot by Dean/Woodie/Don? Probably not--I'd bet a dollar that it didn't even cross their minds at the ceremony. Nothing crazy, nobody died, but I do agree with OP that "handshake or high-five unless the kid makes a move for a hug" should be in the notes for next year.

Part of inspiring young minds is to make it clear that all the young minds are welcome. Some people really don't get down with hugs, or clothespin games, or face painting, or tomatoes, or whatever. If the kid goes for a hug, we've got empirical evidence that Dean/Woodie/Don are okay with hugs too. But it probably shouldn't be the default greeting they go for unless the kid makes the first move.

emphasis mine.

You make a couple of great points. Inspiration, at least in the context of FIRST, requires us to be welcoming of people of all genders, races, etc. However, there's a line between sexism and social construct. In all likelihood, nobody on that stage meant their hugs or handshakes to be sexist. They meant them to congratulate these outstanding students.

When you see someone you're about to shake hands with/high five/hug/whatever, you can tell what they're going to go for, and although you could go with whatever greeting is politically correct, it's going to be unnatural, sort of like the "high five/fist bump" moment that I'm sure many of us have experienced. If I were up there, I'd rather be focused on the students I'm congratulating for being awesome, not thinking "is it okay to hug this person?" If they want a handshake, I'll give them a handshake. If they want a hug, I'll give them a hug.