Quitting FRC for Vex?

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by Foster

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

[Peyton Yeung]

Originally Posted by Aidan Cox

2011 was their last year participating in FRC. A team from a smaller private school, their main sponsor provided them with a shop in another location. When that sponsor moved out of the area, they had no workplace suitable. They currently still work out of that school for the VEX stuff though. And Dan Larochelle is still involved with much of the VEX stuff that happens in the region.

I was wondering what happened to them since they were event finalists and event winners in 2011.

[Tom Line]

Put very simply, VEX is what FTC should have, and could have been.

This is one of those situations where FIRST should take a step back, re-evaluate FTC, and realize that VEX is a better program in many ways. Kill FTC, subsidize current FTC teams to move to VEX for one year, then partner with IFI to make VEX the cheaper alternative to FIRST around the world.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.
...

Again, I agree with your earlier "YMMV".

That said, I think it's a mistake (an understandable one, but a mistake nonetheless) to say that any STEM robotics program doesn't allow students to do any and all of the things you listed, or to say that any program limits activities to any particular period of a year.

All the programs I have ever heard about are officially delighted to be just a foundation for doing more than what they explicitly "require" or measure.

The advantage of the simple programs is that you can start small, and then go as far as your imagination and inspiration take you. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, you have to supply your own motivation

The advantage of the complex programs is that (if you have your ducks in a row), they "force" you to go far. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, a misstep or two can derail an entire season's efforts.

Blake

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Put very simply, VEX is what FTC should have, and could have been.

What's sad is that VEX is what FTC was. For those of you who don't know, the initial iteration of FTC (then FVC) had a lot in common with VRC as it is today. The departure from the mostly COTS robotics competition model in favor of "FRC-mini" custom parts oriented builds in FTC really is quite a shame.

[Doug G]

We choose to do both and throw in VexIQ and FLL while we're at it! Yes this is ambitious, but we've been growing and continue to grow each year and have a very supportive district. No need to pit FRC vs Vex... they have different strengths and weaknesses, figure out which fits your needs the best. So here's what we do and it is always a work in progress...

Freshman
Class: "Engineering and Manufacturing Technology" which has as it's fall semester project a Vex Robot for that years competition.
Vex Teams: 9 in 2015-2016 (only 8 competed)
Students: 42 this year
FRC component: (optional) about 1/3 choose to stay after school/weekends to do FRC.

Sophomore
Class: "Principles of Engineering & Robotics", class is more focused on Design, CAM, Programming, Arduino projects, and any simple FRC offseason projects.
Students: 18 this year
Vex component: Hosting the Vex tournament at our school and our local middle school.
VexIQ/FLL component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools.
FRC: Almost all students stay after school/weekends to do FRC

Junior/Senior Year:
Class: "Automation Engineering", capstone class focused on advanced projects with FRC theme, PLC programming, Advanced CAD/CAM
Students: 11 this year
Vex component: Host Vex Tournament and Mentor Vex teams at local middle school
VexIQ component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools. Host VexIQ/FLL event
FRC: All do FRC All the Time

Senior year:
Class: AP Comp Sci or Advanced Manufacturing (for 16-17)
Students: 2 this year
Vex component: Host Vex Tournament and Mentor Vex teams at local middle school
VexIQ component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools. Host VexIQ/FLL event
FRC: FRC All the Time

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

What's sad is that VEX is what FTC was. For those of you who don't know, the initial iteration of FTC (then FVC) had a lot in common with VRC as it is today. The departure from the mostly COTS robotics competition model in favor of "FRC-mini" custom parts oriented builds in FTC really is quite a shame.

I would say that the proliferation of FRC mini robots in FTC stems from two factors: my experiences with the FTC kit make me think they probably never had a great kit to work with, and FTC in my opinion lacks an identity. What kids are we trying to reach? Middle schoolers, high schoolers, or both? Is it supposed to function as a bridge to FRC from FLL or is it a low cost FRC or a more involved FLL? Are we supposed to put FTC programs in schools that don't have any solid and consistent prospects for FRC? Is it supposed to be an intrasquad feeder for an FRC team? In trying to answer all of these questions, the program rarely adequately answers any of them.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the starter kit for VRC can rislistically play the VRC game for the year (at a low level). A new team can put that robot together and feel accomplishment but see where the design may not be their peak performer, so they can go back to the drawing board and order some more parts if they want to. I don't know what the FTC starter kit is but after seeing the design for res-q I would personally want it to be a revolver with 1 bullet.

FRC has an identity for FRC. Maneuvering from the larger powers in Manchester vs the actions of those that run FRC indicate to me that there is disagreement on the identity of FRC, but it is in some good hands. FLL has a great founding partner in the Lego group that has helped shape and maintain their identity. FTC didn't have that at all.

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

(...) my experiences with the FTC kit make me think they probably never had a great kit to work with (...)

Sure they did; back when all of the parts were Vex, it was a pretty great kit!

The Vex robotics competition is amazing for how little it costs to compete. Whenever someone asks how to get their kids involved in robotics at a school with no team, Vex is usually my first suggestion.

There are lots of other robotics competitions out there as well that are just as fun as FIRST, but not as large of a budget drain. FRC is expensive.

[Michael Corsetto]

1678 has added Vex in the classroom setting as the basis for our "Intro to Robotics Engineering" class. This class was launched in the fall and we had over 100 new high school students across four periods in the class. The robust curriculum and engaging competition makes Vex an ideal program for the classroom setting. We will continue to use Vex as the basis for our high school intro class.

1678 is, for the first time, organizing 4-8 grade robotics summer camps in June. We are dropping our FLL support (after starting 23 teams!) and running Vex IQ at the summer camp. I am already impressed with the summer camp curriculum that Vex IQ offers, it is so simple the implement.

For our after-school elementary and junior high team, we are switching to Vex IQ starting now (parent meeting is June 3!). To ease the transition, we will likely buy kits for most or all of our existing FLL teams, and let them trade in their FLL kits which we will sell or donate to outside programs. The reasons to switch are many, but the main motivators are getting out of a broken NorCalFLL system and saving thousands of dollars in registration costs on a annual basis.

And, to be honest, if at some point we loose some critical teachers and/or mentors, I think the students on 1678 could be better served through 10-12 Vex Teams rather than 1 FRC team. We don't want to run both in the after school setting (rather, we are focusing on off-season projects and outreach efforts). However, without the solid mentor foundation we have, I believe our students would be better served building Vex robots.

When I look in my robotics education crystal ball, the future is Vex. It scales better, has far less financial overhead, and can be effectively run by organized parents out of a family living room. I don't know what the robotics landscape will look like in 10 years (#4champs?), but I would be willing to bet Vex is a huge part of that landscape.

-Mike

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

FTC is missing the boat; they need a legit curriculum asap. From what I have seen a lot of the really successful FTC teams are home schooled. Which is parents and students wanting to learn. If FTC really wants into the public schools they need to help the teachers.

Absolutely spot on!!

And it also applies to FRC. FIRST needs to make the value proposition for teachers, schools , and school systems tangible and measurable. Right now FRC and in many instances FTC are just add on activities that take place at the school. VRC is in the classroom, it is on the teachers desks, it makes students earn a grade.

FIRST needs to make teachers lives easier. Right now all it does is ask for teachers to just donate tons of time with no way to get anything back from their leadership in terms of career. I know this is a blanket statement and that many teachers have figured out a way to make money off of the time they put it, but for many, all they get is ata-boys from their principal.

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

I don't think this thread needs to generate into "mine is better" posts. But the thread subject is "quitting FRC for Vex" and reasons why teams might do so, so we will definitely be inviting comparisons between the two and evaluations of what you get for the money in each.

There are not many FRC teams to begin with in my city, and at least one of them has already converted fully to Vex, another has temporarily put their FRC program on hold and continuing with Vex, and another runs an FRC team but also runs Vex teams, and runs the local Vex kickoff and competition events at their school. I hope they'll continue with FRC as well, but if something has to get cut, you can see which it would be.

[jman4747]

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by jman4747

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

1) The University of South Carolina offers scholarships to FRC and FTC participants. It would be a little peculiar for us to be doing an on-campus outreach program that wasn't aligned with that.

2) Our leading sponsors are invested heavily in the FIRST program. Such a radical departure in our program would surely trigger a review of that financial support, and likely the loss of it.

3) Our build space was originally structured for FRC, and we didn't intend to rock the boat by doing a different program. (FTC probably would've been a good fit for us, if we were starting from a clean sheet--but we had five years of FRC legacy on campus from 2815's time on campus.)

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by jman4747

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

To answer this question I will refer back to the quote I took from Fusion_Clint:

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

and this one:

Originally Posted by gblake

We agreed that he/they would be giving up on the flashy circus side of FRC tournaments (unless he took his students as spectators). His thoughts about that were that he was more than willing to live with the reduced flashiness of a typical, local VRC tournament, if what he got in exchange was being able to look across the fields and pits, and see all of his students driving or working on robots, instead of sitting in the stands watching a handful of their classmates doing that.

The programs give different experiences to the students. I heard someone once say that "FRC is not about robotics. FRC is a life experience that involves robotics". And when I look back on what FRC is doing for the students I work with, I think that "learning to build/program robots" is actually pretty low on the list. Our students are learning more about how to outreach and connect with the community, how to work on teams, how to work on imbalanced teams, how to work under pressure, how to communicate an idea, how to manage their time, how large projects are structured and how each person fits into that. It's much more like how the real world operates.

[Jalerre]

My school used to do a combination of FTC, Vex, and FRC. FTC and Vex were done in the fall and you had to be on one of FTC or Vex teams to join the FRC team. However, after the 2013 season the school believed that FRC wasn't worth the expense and more students were participating in Vex and FTC than FRC because of the required cost to join the team. They dropped the FRC and FTC teams and started more Vex teams because that was the cheapest option. This forced me to move to a FRC team that was not a part of our school.