Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony

[Madison]

I think there are a few things here that merit discussion.

(1) Do you view the relationship between students and mentors as a professional relationship?

(2) Do you view the relationship between students and sponsors as a professional relationship?

(3) Do you believe that a hug is an appropriate gesture between two people in a professional relationship?

(4) Do you believe that FIRST's response to concern about these topics, as raised by a team member, was appropriately professional?

[KosmicKhaos]

I think FIRST should for the most part be considered and treated as a professional environment. However, I don't feel it's necessary to always treat it as such and act like it is such.

Would I go around hugging everyone instead of giving them a handshake in a professional environment? No.

In times of extreme happiness, excitement, jublance, sadness, grief, fear, or other emotional situations in a professional environment, would I hug them? Probably, if the persons body language expressed they were wanting a hug.

However, I believe the assumed intention should always be a handshake in a professional environment and you should not just assume a hug. That brings up an interesting situation though. Who is it appropriate for to indicate intentions for a hug? The mentor? The student? Award recipient? Award presentor? A female? A male?

[PayneTrain]

Internet argument!!!

*checks bingo card*

$@#$@#$@#$@#, it's a free space.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Internet argument!!!

*checks bingo card*

$@#$@#$@#$@#, it's a free space.

Credits

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Official rules of CD Bingo: every thread above the "you last visited here" box in your portal can count as a space. Not every post may count as a space, four corners doesn't count.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Madison

I think there are a few things here that merit discussion.

A little background. I am an old white guy from a fairly huggy culture. I am comfortable giving or receiving hugs. Recognizing that people from other cultures are less so I never initiate a hug from some one I don't know well. I am also try to be careful to hug in an appropriate way.

(1) Do you view the relationship between students and mentors as a professional relationship?

It varies tremendously with the situation. But I coach our team members how to interact professionally with the people they meet. One the primary ways is to treat all people with respect. I don't hug students as a routine greeting.

(2) Do you view the relationship between students and sponsors as a professional relationship?

For the most part yes. Certainly more formal than with the average mentor.

(3) Do you believe that a hug is an appropriate gesture between two people in a professional relationship?

Depends many factors including the formality of the situation. For example never in a court of law. Almost never in greeting colleagues at work. Much less so when receiving a reward or winning a major competition. Once again being cognizant that I am an old white guy, I let others initiate them. While never having the pleasure of receiving an award on Einstein, I have been hugged by male & female on other First fields.

(4) Do you believe that FIRST's response to concern about these topics, as raised by a team member, was appropriately professional?

Really cannot say with the data available. Was the complaint lodged by team parent of one of the women being hugged? What was the text of the complaint? What was the full text of the response? Knowing First's record of promoting women in STEM, I am inclined to focus on the bigger battles.

[Nathan Streeter]

I didn't see the Dean's List Ceremony in-person or on the webcast... But I do find it troubling that Dean, Woodie, and Don would have greeted all the young men with handshakes and all the young women with hugs. I'd prefer for them to standardize on handshakes all around... except for the young Dean's List Winner that is just hurrying up with outstretched arms when pretty much the only reaction could be to respond with a hug.

I very much agree with Mike, Andy, and Libby's comments below... some lines bolded for emphasis.

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

The way Dean, Woodie and Don greeted the 2016 Dean's List Finalists irked my wife and I as well.

I'm not usually vocal around these topics, but when you greet 20 young professionals in a row, I believe a handshake is the baseline, acceptable way to convey appreciation and recognition.

That said, some students may have an overwhelming sense of jubilation, which prompts them to initiate some sort of less-than-professional (but still authentic) expression such as a hug. That is great!

The issue was, women got the default arms out for a hug from Dean, while men got the hand stretched out for a shake.

Also, as a YPP trained professional, I work to avoid "frontal hugging", especially with young women, and especially with young women I do not know. I would certainly not be the one to intiate the hug in front of many other mentors and students.

This is not your uncle hugging their niece. These are professionals congratulating young professionals on their accomplishments. It should be treated as such, and serve as a model to all the mentors and students watching the ceremony.

-Mike

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Well said, Mike. I noticed it too, as did some other mentors I was discussing this with. This hugging of the Dean's list girls and shaking hands with the boys was very uncomfortable.

For me, if I greet a boy or man, it's not too hard to know if we are gonna hug or not. I am very comfortable hugging a man, especially if he is my friend.

If the other person is a boy, girl, or woman, I wait to take their cue if the greeting will be a hug or not. It depends on the situation and relationship. I definitely should not expect or initiate a hug when greeting a female colleague.

I agree that this is not a trivial issue.

Andy B.

Originally Posted by Libby K

Well said. The 'frontal hugging' is something any sensible mentor knows isn't something we should be initiating, so why are the adults up on stage doing it?

It bothers me too. It happens with Male vs. Female VIPS/speakers as well.

I don't think that it's any sort of intentional slight or conscious choice by Dean, Don or Woodie - but as others have said earlier in the thread, it's just the way they've been taught to interact throughout their lives. Not trying to make an excuse... the behavior should change. It may truly be something they've never even thought about.

I've been very close with quite a few 1519 students, current and past... I would only hug the students if 1) it was after a particularly big win or award (and even then, I definitely wouldn't initiate it with younger students, particularly girls), 2) if they were alumni I hadn't seen in a long time or who had been more of a peer, or 3) if it were my sister. I'm an enthusiastic person who doesn't shy away from hugging people, but initiating hugs just isn't something we should be doing... particularly given the YPP. If we - who are building up long-lasting, close relationships - should avoid them, how much more should Dean, Don, Woodie or other award-giving speakers avoid it?

Originally Posted by Madison

I think there are a few things here that merit discussion.

(1) Do you view the relationship between students and mentors as a professional relationship?

It is first and foremost a professional/academic relationship. It will (and should) be a relationship that builds in depth over time, but it should never be viewed more as "buddies" or "friends" than as a professional/academic relationship.

Originally Posted by Madison

(2) Do you view the relationship between students and sponsors as a professional relationship?

Definitely.

Originally Posted by Madison

(3) Do you believe that a hug is an appropriate gesture between two people in a professional relationship?

Not if the relationship is exclusively professional... it would be fine with co-workers who are particularly close friends though.

Originally Posted by Madison

(4) Do you believe that FIRST's response to concern about these topics, as raised by a team member, was appropriately professional?

Not particularly, no.

These questions (particularly #1 and #3) got me thinking a little... a big distinction between hugging in a professional environment with co-workers and hugging in an FRC environment is that the former is generally peer interaction, whereas mentors in FRC are dealing with minors (and generally are more of an authority figure).

[TheMagicPenguin]

I didn't get to be a winner at world's but I was a finalist. I won in Pennsylvania for FTC. When I won at my state championship, I was rewarded with hugs and handshakes from mentors, volenetters, and peers alike. People who I barely knew from other teams where hugging me. It felt amazing, and I knew they appreciated what I had done for the state and my team.

I do belive that it is a little strange maybe even a little sexist (if that's even the right term) for all the females to be expected to hug an males expexted to just shake hands. Hugging and shaling hands is acceptable for both males and females.

I don't belive that hugging is inappropriate or unprofessional when celebrating on any level. Often after an event when I'm saying goodbye to volunteers at an event we share in a hug (males and females) and on occasions go out to dinner together.

FIRST is more then just a bunch of professionals. We are a family who care for one another and we build friendshis with adults and peers alike. A student can have an authority figure who they are friends with.

*edit* - word choice

[unpopularideas]

Originally Posted by TheMagicPenguin

I do belive that it is a little sexist (or whatever is the politically correct term at this point) for the females to all be hugged and the males getting handshaks.

Hey there, Burner Account Here....

It's very sad that sexism go only one way. What you are referring to here is the new age definition of equality. Men have one expectation, and women another.

See sexism is a term only applied to the unfair treatment of women. Here discussion is girls are being treated unfairly compared to males. Are they asking if hugs are harassment? I don't understand the upset regarding hugs. Is argument hugs are unprofessional?

*Sorry for bad english*

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by unpopularideas

Hey there, Burner Account Here....

It's very sad that sexism go only one way. What you are referring to here is the new age definition of equality. Men have one expectation, and women another.

See sexism is a term only applied to the unfair treatment of women. Here discussion is girls are being treated unfairly compared to males. Are they asking if hugs are harassment? I don't understand the upset regarding hugs. Is argument hugs are unprofessional?

*Sorry for bad english*

Sexism totally goes both ways, but women historically get the short end of the stick more. Are hugs unwelcome or unprofessional? It depends on the person, and while the Experient system may have asked about dietary restrictions or mobility issues they didn't ask about hugs. Handshakes, though, are pretty universally accepted (and will be for at least a while longer). Equality would be to go for the handshake for all unless both sides are okay with a hug. (In practice, let the kid make the first move.) It's a simple tweak, it doesn't take an army of lawyers or gender theory experts, everyone feels welcomed and nobody feels uncomfortable.

*Side note: The admins can totally look up IPs on burner accounts, which are still not permitted by the CD rules.

[The Swaggy P]

Originally Posted by Billfred

*Side note: The admins can totally look up IPs on burner accounts, which are still not permitted by the CD rules.

Easily avoided. Just pull out an old PC and put it on the same network, or put it on a different network if you want to be real anonymous.

[Nathan Streeter]

Originally Posted by unpopularideas

Hey there, Burner Account Here....

It's very sad that sexism go only one way. What you are referring to here is the new age definition of equality. Men have one expectation, and women another.

See sexism is a term only applied to the unfair treatment of women. Here discussion is girls are being treated unfairly compared to males. Are they asking if hugs are harassment? I don't understand the upset regarding hugs. Is argument hugs are unprofessional?

*Sorry for bad english*

This sounds like an opinion (albeit, slightly unpopular)... not something so controversial that you "need" a throwaway/burner account.

It seems like throwaway/burner accounts are becoming far too common now... I understand their use for posts seeking help in a (seemingly) toxic team situation, but other than that, I'd like for people to either 1) be willing to 'own' their opinion or situation, or 2) not post that, if it's really too controversial to attach to your name and team.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter

It seems like throwaway/burner accounts are becoming far too common now... I understand their use for posts seeking help in a (seemingly) toxic team situation, but other than that, I'd like for people to either 1) be willing to 'own' their opinion or situation, or 2) not post that, if it's really too controversial to attach to your name and team.

or,

3) The rest of us can voice our opinion if we like or dislike these burner accounts by providing negative or positive reputation points.

I will be giving out negative rep points for folks using burner and apparently duplicate accounts.

Andy B.