Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Official rules of CD Bingo: every thread above the "you last visited here" box in your portal can count as a space. Not every post may count as a space, four corners doesn't count.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Madison

I think there are a few things here that merit discussion.

A little background. I am an old white guy from a fairly huggy culture. I am comfortable giving or receiving hugs. Recognizing that people from other cultures are less so I never initiate a hug from some one I don't know well. I am also try to be careful to hug in an appropriate way.

(1) Do you view the relationship between students and mentors as a professional relationship?

It varies tremendously with the situation. But I coach our team members how to interact professionally with the people they meet. One the primary ways is to treat all people with respect. I don't hug students as a routine greeting.

(2) Do you view the relationship between students and sponsors as a professional relationship?

For the most part yes. Certainly more formal than with the average mentor.

(3) Do you believe that a hug is an appropriate gesture between two people in a professional relationship?

Depends many factors including the formality of the situation. For example never in a court of law. Almost never in greeting colleagues at work. Much less so when receiving a reward or winning a major competition. Once again being cognizant that I am an old white guy, I let others initiate them. While never having the pleasure of receiving an award on Einstein, I have been hugged by male & female on other First fields.

(4) Do you believe that FIRST's response to concern about these topics, as raised by a team member, was appropriately professional?

Really cannot say with the data available. Was the complaint lodged by team parent of one of the women being hugged? What was the text of the complaint? What was the full text of the response? Knowing First's record of promoting women in STEM, I am inclined to focus on the bigger battles.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

In my mind FRC is more akin to a sports team than a work environment.

And that's perfectly fine. Especially within your own team or behind the player station wall. But you shouldn't automatically assume other teams operate in the same fashion, and bring the same type of physical greeting automatically to those you are unfamiliar with.

[Zealii]

As one of the females who won the Dean's List award this year, I was not offended in any way by their behavior (hey, I got to hug Dean!) If I had wanted a handshake, I would have offered my hand. At States I shook hands with all of the judges except my mentor (who was a judge), who I hugged. Becoming a Finalist was a big deal and my mentor has helped me so much. It was an emotional time and maybe I'm just a hug kind of person.

At Worlds, winning was a complete surprise and there was a lot of emotion. Upon arriving at the stage I did not extend my hand for a handshake, and Dean gave me a big hug. This award is a big accomplishment and meeting Dean, Don, and Woodie was a first. While I can't speak for the other Dean's List Winners, I do look up to them a lot so I was completely ok with hugging them, actually I wanted to. Hugging is sometimes seen as a gesture of friendship.

Point is, there is a lot of emotion when they announce your name, whether I received a hug or a handshake was not on my mind. I just didn't want to fall on the stairs in front of all those people

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Zealii

As one of the females who won the Dean's List award this year, I was not offended in any way by their behavior (hey, I got to hug Dean!) If I had wanted a handshake, I would have offered my hand. At States I shook hands with all of the judges except my mentor (who was a judge), who I hugged. Becoming a Finalist was a big deal and my mentor has helped me so much. It was an emotional time and maybe I'm just a hug kind of person.

At Worlds, winning was a complete surprise and there was a lot of emotion. Upon arriving at the stage I did not extend my hand for a handshake, and Dean gave me a big hug. This award is a big accomplishment and meeting Dean, Don, and Woodie was a first. While I can't speak for the other Dean's List Winners, I do look up to them a lot so I was completely ok with hugging them, actually I wanted to. Hugging is sometimes seen as a gesture of friendship.

Point is, there is a lot of emotion when they announce your name, whether I received a hug or a handshake was not on my mind. I just didn't want to fall on the stairs in front of all those people

Thank you for posting this!

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Zealii

As one of the females who won the Dean's List award this year, ...

Congratulations on Deans List!! Are virtual hugs OK? If not, how about a virtual handshake? Which ever you prefer.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Zealii

Point is, there is a lot of emotion when they announce your name, whether I received a hug or a handshake was not on my mind. I just didn't want to fall on the stairs in front of all those people

Hahaha. From my 5th grade spelling bee to my college graduation, I can remember chanting that to myself. Please don't trip. Please don't trip. Please don't trip.

[techhelpbb]

This will sound silly:

As per the young person who receives the hug: should we just not work out and agree whether it is okay between the people involved.

I mean spectators are entitled to their viewpoints but these are the special moments of these young people in that spotlight and it should be up to them...perhaps they do not want to even shake hands.

It should also not be held against our founders they all happen to be white: I see no skin color bias in FRC. You can not hold back the whole of the organization hoping on diversity in these strategically unique positions. However FIRST could bring to the stage more contributors which also shows the growth of the organization.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

As per the young person who receives the hug: should we just not work out and agree whether it is okay between the people involved.

I mean spectators are entitled to their viewpoints but these are the special moments of these young people in that spotlight and it should be up to them...perhaps they do not want to even shake hands.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with this. The issue seems to be that some spectators viewed the male leaders on stage as defaulting or guiding women toward hugs and men toward handshakes without reading (or accurately reading) individual body language. This issue is inappropriately exacerbated by FIRST's email response, which makes no reference to reading body language at all, but rather indicates that "jubilation and tears of joy" from "nearly all the young women" automatically makes the hugging appropriate for all women (and inappropriate for all men) without body language being part of the described perspective.

For myself, I understand as a spectator that it isn't possible to tell if anyone actually did ignore body language or guide the students differently, consciously or not. I make no accusations there, though it would behoove us all to keep it in mind. The official email on the other hand, is at best thoughtlessly worded and at worst entirely inappropriate. The logic that anyone should physically touch another person simply upon witnessing tears of joy, without mention of their own wishes, is ridiculous and unacceptable on many levels.

Separately, I would suggest that FIRST reemphasize the need for reading personal choice and cultural perception for hugs/etc by officials with participants. This incident aside, I know I personally have been uncomfortable with unsolicited hugs from officials I do not know. I look forward to a mention of this in the respective section of our standard training next year.

[GaryVoshol]

And Pat Zajak always holds the hands of the women as they move into position for the final puzzle.

Is it a gesture treating females differently? Yes. Is it a sexist gesture? I'd say absolutely not. But is it appropriate? I'm not sure given the semi-professional setting. But then, there's TSIMFD. (BINGO!)

[Bryce2471]

Being a 2014 dean's list winner, I would just like to say that the most important/inspirational/amazing part of winning this award is not the hug, handshake, or high five that you get from the people on stage.

I think it is great that Dean, Don, and Woody are there to help give out the dean's list award. I do not judge them or think any less of them because they hug some winners and not others. I hope that if I gave some winners hugs and others handshakes when I went on stage in 2014, no one judged me for it.

There are many things that should be improved to help include girls in FIRST. But this particular instance is not something that deserves the worry and scrutiny it's getting.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

There are many things that should be improved to help include girls in FIRST. But this particular instance is not something that deserves the worry and scrutiny it's getting.

This is one of those things I've had to work through in past situations like this. Does it need a four-and-surely-more-page thread on CD? Probably not. But that doesn't invalidate the OP's observation (or OP's frustration at FIRST's response). It really just needs to go in the prep notes for the Dean's List presentation next year, when it will be reviewed by the relevant people going into it. Simple, effective. Repeat for other presentations as desired.

(and if you other people are going to insist on bingo cards then why isn't "it's spelled Woodie" not one of the spaces?)

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Well said, Mike. I noticed it too, as did some other mentors I was discussing this with. This hugging of the Dean's list girls and shaking hands with the boys was very uncomfortable.

For me, if I greet a boy or man, it's not too hard to know if we are gonna hug or not. I am very comfortable hugging a man, especially if he is my friend.

If the other person is a boy, girl, or woman, I wait to take their cue if the greeting will be a hug or not. It depends on the situation and relationship. I definitely should not expect or initiate a hug when greeting a female colleague.

I agree that this is not a trivial issue.

Andy B.

Not trivial indeed!
I never noticed anything with regard to the handshake vs. hugs.
Maybe its more of a cultural thing?
In Hawaii, people show "aloha" and hug each other all the time.....at work, at events, professionals vs. professionals, etc.
To each its own I guess, cant please everyone.

Sorry for being ignorant on the topic, as I grew up on a tiny little island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Not trivial indeed!
I never noticed anything with regard to the handshake vs. hugs.
Maybe its more of a cultural thing?
In Hawaii, people show "aloha" and hug each other all the time.....at work, at events, professionals vs. professionals, etc.
To each its own I guess, cant please everyone.

Sorry for being ignorant on the topic, as I grew up on a tiny little island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

And if it was one of your kids that got called, they may well go for the hug first. And that's fine*! We all have blind spots, and sometimes it takes another's observation to do better by others.

*assuming the people on stage were huggers, which we are taking as a given since they totally were

[Nathan Streeter]

I didn't see the Dean's List Ceremony in-person or on the webcast... But I do find it troubling that Dean, Woodie, and Don would have greeted all the young men with handshakes and all the young women with hugs. I'd prefer for them to standardize on handshakes all around... except for the young Dean's List Winner that is just hurrying up with outstretched arms when pretty much the only reaction could be to respond with a hug.

I very much agree with Mike, Andy, and Libby's comments below... some lines bolded for emphasis.

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

The way Dean, Woodie and Don greeted the 2016 Dean's List Finalists irked my wife and I as well.

I'm not usually vocal around these topics, but when you greet 20 young professionals in a row, I believe a handshake is the baseline, acceptable way to convey appreciation and recognition.

That said, some students may have an overwhelming sense of jubilation, which prompts them to initiate some sort of less-than-professional (but still authentic) expression such as a hug. That is great!

The issue was, women got the default arms out for a hug from Dean, while men got the hand stretched out for a shake.

Also, as a YPP trained professional, I work to avoid "frontal hugging", especially with young women, and especially with young women I do not know. I would certainly not be the one to intiate the hug in front of many other mentors and students.

This is not your uncle hugging their niece. These are professionals congratulating young professionals on their accomplishments. It should be treated as such, and serve as a model to all the mentors and students watching the ceremony.

-Mike

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Well said, Mike. I noticed it too, as did some other mentors I was discussing this with. This hugging of the Dean's list girls and shaking hands with the boys was very uncomfortable.

For me, if I greet a boy or man, it's not too hard to know if we are gonna hug or not. I am very comfortable hugging a man, especially if he is my friend.

If the other person is a boy, girl, or woman, I wait to take their cue if the greeting will be a hug or not. It depends on the situation and relationship. I definitely should not expect or initiate a hug when greeting a female colleague.

I agree that this is not a trivial issue.

Andy B.

Originally Posted by Libby K

Well said. The 'frontal hugging' is something any sensible mentor knows isn't something we should be initiating, so why are the adults up on stage doing it?

It bothers me too. It happens with Male vs. Female VIPS/speakers as well.

I don't think that it's any sort of intentional slight or conscious choice by Dean, Don or Woodie - but as others have said earlier in the thread, it's just the way they've been taught to interact throughout their lives. Not trying to make an excuse... the behavior should change. It may truly be something they've never even thought about.

I've been very close with quite a few 1519 students, current and past... I would only hug the students if 1) it was after a particularly big win or award (and even then, I definitely wouldn't initiate it with younger students, particularly girls), 2) if they were alumni I hadn't seen in a long time or who had been more of a peer, or 3) if it were my sister. I'm an enthusiastic person who doesn't shy away from hugging people, but initiating hugs just isn't something we should be doing... particularly given the YPP. If we - who are building up long-lasting, close relationships - should avoid them, how much more should Dean, Don, Woodie or other award-giving speakers avoid it?

Originally Posted by Madison

I think there are a few things here that merit discussion.

(1) Do you view the relationship between students and mentors as a professional relationship?

It is first and foremost a professional/academic relationship. It will (and should) be a relationship that builds in depth over time, but it should never be viewed more as "buddies" or "friends" than as a professional/academic relationship.

Originally Posted by Madison

(2) Do you view the relationship between students and sponsors as a professional relationship?

Definitely.

Originally Posted by Madison

(3) Do you believe that a hug is an appropriate gesture between two people in a professional relationship?

Not if the relationship is exclusively professional... it would be fine with co-workers who are particularly close friends though.

Originally Posted by Madison

(4) Do you believe that FIRST's response to concern about these topics, as raised by a team member, was appropriately professional?

Not particularly, no.

These questions (particularly #1 and #3) got me thinking a little... a big distinction between hugging in a professional environment with co-workers and hugging in an FRC environment is that the former is generally peer interaction, whereas mentors in FRC are dealing with minors (and generally are more of an authority figure).